Bookworm Transcripts

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So I have fun updating news about stolen vehicle mic do tell I put a deposit on a new one

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All right, when do you get it? So?

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after all the fun

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Moving money around stuff is done. I can be done with this whole stolen vehicle thing, which will make Joe happy

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Yeah, that's never fun to to deal with glad you're getting to the end of it though

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Yeah, which was I think it was last time we had to

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Move recording because I was having a fun fight with insurance. So thankfully we're not doing that anymore

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And we can move on with life. So there you go

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fun update on Joe's life

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When do you get your new vehicle? I know that they are a little bit harder to find at the moment

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That might be an understatement. So

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The place I'm getting it from is actually they they ship them in from out of state like they're buying them

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from saltless

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States is the way that they put them because you know in Minnesota

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We like to salt our roads. So every vehicle in the road up here has fairly significant amount of rust after about

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six months of them existing and

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These don't really have that problem at all. So that's a benefit there and

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I'm grateful for that. Anyway, they're buying them out of state and bringing them in because they don't exist up here

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That's how it goes. All right, but basically pay a premium if you want a vehicle at all

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That's the name of the game right now. Yeah, I know someone who got in an accident with a mini van

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And they got the insurance sorted out, but they could not find a replacement mini van

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So they had to actually buy a new one and it's not going to be delivered for

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several weeks and insurance is no longer paying for a

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rental vehicle, so they're a family with four kids and down to a single sedan

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Yeah, yeah, I hear you yeah right now. I've got two Nissan Altamas one is mine

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The other is a rental and when you're used to having a suburban a Nissan Altama is less than ideal

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Yeah, just not my preference of

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Exciting vehicles to own so anyway, we don't need a winter in Minnesota. Yeah, we don't need to like belabor on about

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Vehicles, but anyway fun update on Joe's life. So let's do

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Do some follow-up. I have a couple of them here one of them was do better. How's that going? I?

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Think that's okay. I think I'm doing better. I don't have any idea, but I will continue to do my best to do better. I

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Love that you put it in the eyes

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I probably captured it that way with the intention of going back and updating it with context from the last

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episode, but I didn't do that

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It was a good one it was entertaining to see it like that anyway, basically I'm paying attention to

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how I operate in general and

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Trying to just evaluate

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like emotions the actions that come from those and

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What can I do to be a better person with those so that's kind of what we're at but it's more of an observational

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Task than anything. So there's that one the second one

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Which is way more fun to talk about is to work on this task management system

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Diagram and I sent you a link to this and a pictures in the outline

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You can share this if you want in the outline mic

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It's probably gonna keep changing though because even as I was capturing the screenshot to share it with you

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I realized there's a whole layer of things. I don't have in here

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So it's probably gonna change over time

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Me and realize like didn't even realize how much was gonna go into this

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What I have here is fairly basic and we'll get even more advanced and complex over time. So there's that hopefully it makes sense

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Makes sense to me. It's

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too long to share apparently in the

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Chat because there's a 200 character limit in YouTube

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but it'll be in the show notes for the published episode and

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I'm not surprised that this ended up being more complicated than you

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Thought it was going to be that's kind of the point. I guess it's very much in line with the process for like the personal retreat

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Stuff that I do it sounds really simple and then you sit down

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You're like, oh, I'm just gonna ask these three questions all day

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Well, I don't need all day to do that and you can rationalize like I'm just gonna

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Do this quick and then you get into it. You're like, there is no way I can do this quick

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But there is a lot of value and clarity. I think that comes from from doing this

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So what was the big takeaway from you from putting this diagram together?

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Is there any sort of way that this helped you in your day-to-day workflow?

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As far as helping me day-to-day, I don't I don't know that it's had anything major

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There's been one minor thing that came about because if you look at this diagram one of the things that you'll see is

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There's a task list

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Database in it which is like your central stock if you want to use the system terms and then whenever I complete things

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It goes into this success bucket. Basically. I got it done. Yay. Joe did a thing

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However, when it hits that point, it's very common that whenever that task is done

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I need to communicate that it's done in some form whether that's to my wife to somebody I work with or

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Whoever requested the task to be done. I need to let my staff know what the new protocol is on something like these are all things that I have to do

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After a task is complete and I've learned that that is actually a very critical step in

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Knowing how to do that well

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Because if I don't do that

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Like sub meta task that goes with it if I don't do that one really well

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If you notice in the chart it is usually communicated via email, but then that email bucket

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often generates new tasks

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so if I don't do that one well it automatically leads to compound tasks as I've started calling them because I

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Did the one thing and now it's led to a

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Whole new realm of tasks that are starting to come back to me that I have to watch out for so

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That is less than ideal

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But it means that it's at least exposed a potential pain point that I'm not sure I realized was a pain point

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Like I knew this was a thing that if I didn't do this well, it was

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Potentially gonna lead to even more work for me

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But I didn't realize how immediate that was until I saw it on this graph. So sure be smart with how I communicate that something's done basically

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yeah, that's a really good point and

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maybe is

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Something that you don't have to deal with in certain situations

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But you do with others and really the beauty of putting this diagram together

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I guess is realizing in what scenarios you need to do that because in a typical task management diagram

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You get to the end you check the task is completed and you think that's the end, but it's not in some cases

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So cool. Are you glad you did it?

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Well, I'm still working on it because like I said, there's like a whole layer of things have realized are not here and

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And that's primarily like again if you glance at this picture and I'm sorry for those of you who are alive

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You can't see this but there's like a whole layer like when things come out of a task list

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I feel like it needs to go into like this is my work time

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So it needs to go into that work time because sometimes it goes back to a task list from that like it doesn't actually finish

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It's not a one-to-one. I don't start a task and then it's done

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So it can like create this loop within that but then that work time can also be eaten up by like all the meetings and phone calls and stuff

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That's on this as well

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So it's got like a time element that needs to be in this as well in order to really get a clean picture of it

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But that's a whole nother layer of complexity that's

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Going into this thus Joe's not done

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I guess and I didn't realize that until we were getting ready to record

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So yeah, this is more of a work in progress than I thought

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Yeah, you got a good start on it though

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And I love the fact that you have one of these from the task list to something being deleted and

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The definition is waiting too long. Yes

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The Napoleon approach

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Just ignore it for a while see if it goes away. Yes. Yep, and that's I

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Should maybe try to figure out if there's ways to I

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Wouldn't be able to do this but if there was ways to make the lines bigger based on how many things happen in

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Each of those that would be kind of cool

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But I don't think I have the information to make those accurate by any means

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But I would love to know how many things get deleted because I waited too long to work on them in some cases

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That's a good thing like I waited a

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Day instead of responding immediately and thus they fixed it themselves like to me. That's a success, but

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Yep, yes waiting too long can be good or bad just say it

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Right and for the folks who have downloaded this episode and did not

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Hear the pre-show banter you built this in obsidian, which is awesome. Yeah, I used the whole mermaid graphing thing

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that's now built into obsidian to make this and

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Then it's in a spot and I can reference that chart from other places within obsidian, which is kind of nice

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So yeah, which means it's forever a living thing very cool

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So this is a whole tangent that we're not going to get into today

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But I'm just going to throw this out there. I

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Have been rethinking everything in my task management workflow. I showed you a big stack of

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fountain pen friendly index cards that I'm playing with I'm still using the notebook and

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I am also playing around with all of the possible task management plugins inside of obsidian

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So we can come back to that at another point, but there's some really cool stuff you can do

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Yeah, I've got a lot of things that are task-based in

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Obsidian and have like queries that show up on my daily

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note, so

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Maybe you and I should get together at some point and just nerd out over this we should we should make it a

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Bookworm live stream that would be easy to do too

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Seed planted okay, I can see the gears turning and Joe's head. Let's move on now

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That was mean that was really mean sorry. What are we doing here today? Oh, yeah, we wrote a book

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Let's talk about that book

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Thanks. I have to I have to chime in on my action item

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which is a

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typical mic impossible to measure action item

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We never allow it anyone to be humiliated in my presence

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this was from the previous book that we covered going back to your

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Do better action item that we never really

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Explicitly defined in this episode we covered Atlas of the heart by Bernay Brown and it was all about

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naming emotions and one of them that stood out to me was humiliation and I

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Recall this action item was really just a perspective. I want to have as I go into

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different meetings and

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Encounters with other people is always allow the other person to save face basically and I did not have any

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chances to practice this

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Directly the last couple of weeks, but I will say I've been in meetings where things have started going in a specific direction

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And I have noticed that like my antenna go up because I kind of

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For see a situation where if this really goes completely off the rails how this person might feel

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cornered and

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That's kind of what I feel. That's what I mean by humiliated sure

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It's like they were trying to explain something and people kept pushing and they weren't ready to give a justification for it

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So they're just like grasping at words and then it's almost like you're trying to trap them

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You know that sort of thing and I could see stuff kind of heading that way and I

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Try to head it off at the past and it never got to the point where it was really

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Needed for me to jump in and do something to intervene

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But I will say that I'm more sensitive to this. I feel now. So I think that's already

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paying dividends from reading that book even if I didn't explicitly

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Meet the definition of done for this specific follow-up item. It's really hard to measure done on a change of mindset

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It is we should create a new format for these

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follow-up action items because I feel like those are the ones that provide me the most value from the books that

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We read from bookworm. Yeah, but they really don't fit the format at all

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What was it? So Benjamin Franklin did that was it Franklin who had the list of virtues that he was trying to?

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Track whether or not he was doing well with those. Yeah, it feels very much like that where this isn't a yes or no

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It's a scale. It's a spectrum if you will where you're kind of trying to keep an eye on how well are you doing with something?

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So you almost have to have a list of these and then just rate yourself on them on a regular basis

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I kind of do that with the daily questions. It's not explicitly

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Values or virtues like sure Benjamin Franklin, but it's the things that are important to me. So right it's that concept though, right?

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Yep, I don't know it sounds like we're gonna talk more about that in our next episode though

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So there's that perhaps teaser drops

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Okay, can we talk about today's book now? Let's do it because this one could get long

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so today's book is how to change by Katie milkman and

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Katie is a

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colleague of

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Angela Duckworth we read her book grit is duck worth wrote grit. Yes, and

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Katie is a

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researcher alongside her that works with a lot of the same type of behavioral science research and

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Katie has taken a lot of that research and

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picked apart a lot of the I would say like difficult I don't want to call him personality traits

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but habits

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I guess bad habits if you will that we all do in some form at different levels and then shown the science of how to overcome those and

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in some cases I

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Feel like she's speaking to my soul and the part of me that I don't want anybody to know about

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And the other part of it's like wait does that work? I think you're crazy

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I don't think that's actually a thing so there's there's a lot of this back and forth that I found myself

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Going through they're a handful of these that I feel like could

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Be described as the same thing and I'll I think I'll talk about those to some degree when we get to those

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But yeah, I think this is an interesting book to take the science and research side of how do you actually make?

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These changes and build habits and such

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That's probably a

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Stretch to call it a habit building book

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But anyway, you get my point. There's a lot of these things that we could work on being better

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Just how do you do that from a science stance? Yeah?

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I don't think it's a stretch to call it a habit book because

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it is

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Talking about behavioral change which is what the power of habit atomic habits and tiny habits all

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Referenced but it's not like those books. No, it's not. I don't know. I had trouble reconciling that

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Especially the way this one started

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Yeah, so this one she starts off with a chapter called getting started which the

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Introduction and stuff I think there's a forward written by Angela Duckworth - but there is a getting started chapter where

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She tells her story about going to the Google headquarters and then being asked a question that she had a hard time

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understanding and

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getting an answer to right away and

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basically what was going on is Google was offering a lot of

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Skill-building classes and free things like trainers and such and people were not taking advantage of these things even though they were free

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So it wasn't a financial thing

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But yet people still weren't taking advantage of these deals that would help them change for the better

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So then the question was well, why but this whole first chapter? I feel like is just a primer of saying like

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Here's how my research started and that was about it. That was all I got really out of this one

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There's some jumping off points that come from it like she talks about

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fresh starts like when you hit a

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Point in the road in your life where something is completely different

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You have a job change you have a baby you you know

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You have these points in time when big changes happen. It's the perfect time to introduce new

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Habits new changes get rid of bad things bad habits and such like that's a really good time to do that because you have the motivation

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And things are already changing at that time. She gets into a little bit more of that

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But anyway thoughts on this first one Mike. Well, the first chapter

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Kind of rubbed me the wrong way because

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She essentially is making the case for New Year's resolutions

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Yeah, I didn't want to bring that up. I figured you would but yes, she absolutely thinks that New Year's resolutions are potentially a very good thing

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potentially, I mean, we've all heard the statistic that 90% of them fail and she

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Embraces which I think is a clever argument. Well, that means that 10% of them are successful

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so even if you have just a 10% chance of changing your life isn't that worth it and

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Hard to argue with that logic, but I don't think it's very sound because the

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alternative that is being disregarded if you make that argument is could there possibly be a better way to affect

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behavioral change and I think

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100% there absolutely is

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So given the option of New Year's resolutions are nothing at all. Yes, choose New Year's resolutions

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But as soon as you

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Introduce an option see whatever it is is gonna be better

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So I understand her point and I think it's it's valid that you know

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The reason that people gravitate towards these New Year's resolutions is because of this fresh start effect that you had kind of talked about and

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The larger point and one of my action items already in this first chapter is to find more opportunities for those fresh starts

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There's nothing magical about

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January 1st other than it's convenient as people are flipping over their calendars and so

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It's easier for people to attach maybe to that specific point as a fresh start

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But there's no law that you have to do it then you can do it whenever so look for those opportunities where you have those

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moments that can trigger a fresh start whether it's a job change or having a kid or a

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Moving to a new city. I mean there's there's lots of things that can trigger those those fresh starts and I walked away from this first chapter

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Thinking you know these are probably all around me and I should just start looking for these more frequently even beginning a new week

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that's potentially a

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Fresh start it may it's maybe not as a substantial fresh start as a brand new year

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but

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Ultimately, that's just mindset stuff if you viewed it as this is a brand new beginning

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Then it is the same that there's nothing special about a specific date

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So figure out where those those points are in your own life and then leverage them to hopefully make some some better

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choices and some positive changes

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Yeah, that's I think that's a really good point like you can if you if you use

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Let's use Carol Dweck here

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growth mindset like if you use that mentality of

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Always trying to get better like you can hunt for these fresh starts and that could be like you're saying

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It could be at the beginning of the week could be the beginning of the month

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It could be the beginning of every day like that's something I know I've tried to do

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People talk about every day is a new start like well, you're right

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But it's tough to

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Actually think about it that way and it make changes as a result of that like it's not as simple as it's a fresh start

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Because it happens so often it doesn't feel like it sometimes

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So like I totally get that but one of the things I also wondered was like okay

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Every time we finish reading a book you and I sit down and talk about this like it's that moment

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In time where we kind of have another start point like you have another change point that happens there

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Because you've just finished debriefing a book you've got all the nuggets from it at this point or maybe we gave some to each other

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I'm not sure how I feel about this whole might giving me tasks on bookworm thing

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Becoming a habit and I'm not sure how I feel about it

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So like that is a thing that happens as well

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So like you get all the new information when you have that influx of information

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That can also be a new starting point like even if you did a bunch of research online and learned about I don't even know what

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Qualibears like there may be something about quality bears that strikes something in you and like that moment could be that starting point for you

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Yeah, they're literally all around us and I think using those as springboards is a very powerful mechanism for

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Positive change. I just don't like how it's wrapped up in

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News resolutions are actually a good thing. Yes. You lose a little bit of credibility in my mind when you make that argument

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Yep. Yeah, that was when she starts talking about how great news resolutions are

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Okay, this book is gonna go very

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Differently than I thought it was going to

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And it's interesting because prior to reading how to read a book by Mortimer Adler and the whole idea of

00:22:20

topical reading had I not understood that I probably would have approached that argument a little bit differently

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I probably would have said well, let's just get to the end and see how this all ties together

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And then I'll decide for myself whether this book is

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For me, but as I go now

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recognizing that this is a

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discussion with the author and they're making their arguments and I'm

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Responding to them and also slotting it in with all of the other books that I have read

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I kind of do that in real time as I read these now. So as I get to that section

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I'm immediately thinking about the section that I read from atomic habits and

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Tiny habits and why that stuff won't work and I kind of know why it's not gonna work

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And so I dismissed that argument as invalid right at the beginning right the next level for me

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I guess is to not let that

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Influence my approach to everything else. She says after that point. I'm not very good at that yet

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Yeah, yeah, cuz it's it's colored at that point right or like if they're saying things that

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Goes along with what you already have you have confirmation bias and you tend to trust everything they say

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but if they say something at the very beginning that makes you kind of

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hesitant it can force you into skeptical mode for the rest of the book and

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You may or may not realize it's happening

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Exactly and once I recognize that that's happening. It's hard for me to

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Get out of that. I don't know if that's

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Seems like that has potential to be a negative thing overall, but it's just something I recognize in myself

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It's a bias that I have to fight against right so that's that's the very beginning of getting started

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That's where we she basically talks about how she got into her research and fresh starts and how those are good

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Breakout points. I just want to point out like if you remember this has been a number of episodes ago

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And we were talking a lot about like Joe's daily routine and I was talking about like here's me

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Setting all of this up, but it was because of me moving houses

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That's partly why

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Instinctively we know that whenever you have these big changes like that's a perfect time to introduce new habits and

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change the way you're doing things because you're already in the middle of one big change and then doing something else is

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Actually fairly minor

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To add to the bigger mix. So that's partly why why I was doing that anyway. There's that piece chapter two is

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called impulsivity and

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It's exactly what it sounds like it looks like okay. Here's here's where she starts to set up the format for the next six chapters

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She's got six points that we're gonna talk about and she tells a story

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about

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The topic in this case impulsivity and then starts giving you a lot of the research and the findings around it and what to do about it

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And she doesn't always give you exact

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Tactical of like do this every single time you have this and it'll make it all go away like no

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That's not it at all, but she'll give you the broad ideas, but impulsivity basically

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It's what she calls the present bias, which is your you're more prone to

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dive into things that you can see and have the instant gratification from right now as

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opposed to working towards longer term goals and

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I'll talk a little bit about some of the overlap on the next one

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But this one I feel like I I tend to do and call it something else

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But I also I'm not real sure what to do about it sometimes

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so

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There's that this is one of those really you had to go there. You had to start with this one

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Why are you striking my soul don't do that?

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So

00:26:09

the big thing I like from this

00:26:12

section is

00:26:14

temptation bundling and again we know about this from atomic habits and

00:26:20

Echo brings up a good point

00:26:23

I want to address in the chat here

00:26:24

It says with my philosophy of listening to opposing ideas looks like that would fit here and I'm

00:26:29

struggling to reconcile the

00:26:32

like philosophy differences versus

00:26:36

Research based because that's kind of how this book is framed differences. I guess in my own

00:26:42

Brain I've kind of closed the book on

00:26:44

New Year's resolutions and like there isn't room for a science-based argument that these are actually good for you

00:26:53

but then that's the

00:26:56

the foundation now that the shaky foundation in my

00:27:00

My opinion that she's like chosen to build her arguments on in the first chapter

00:27:05

And then she gets into this temptation bundling and it's kind of a cursory glance

00:27:10

Into the the topic and again how to read a book

00:27:15

There's a whole bunch more that could be gone into with this that she doesn't really get to and

00:27:23

Comparing it so closely to atomic habits is probably

00:27:29

unfair, but I I have trouble with this

00:27:34

approach like the science-based

00:27:38

application of behavioral change because in the subtitle the science of getting from where you are to where you want to be and

00:27:44

not going deep into these things is

00:27:49

Causing me a lot of friction already at the beginning of this book sure. Yeah, I could see that

00:27:56

I know that like in this particular section she's talking about temptation bundling

00:28:01

But she also talks a lot about gamification which mmm-hmm. We read a whole book on that and

00:28:05

super better if you remember that one so gamification like I know there's a lot you could cover here and

00:28:12

We of course read a book about how to do that well

00:28:15

Which was not not anywhere near like she doesn't talk about that anywhere near to the level of detail that we had in super better

00:28:24

But I don't know that that's necessary in this particular case

00:28:27

But I think I get your point too because like she does talk about like here's the problem and then here are some like

00:28:35

Research and stories about that particular problem and how people solved it

00:28:40

But she doesn't ever actually summarize that into something cohesive that you can run away with or take away from this

00:28:47

Yeah, it gets kind of hard to translate it. I find so again. There's good stuff here

00:28:53

It's just hard to translate it out of it. It is now the research

00:28:56

I want to ask you how did you did you think that the stories that she shared from her own personal research that they were effective in

00:29:04

Supporting her points not always I would say it's about half and half

00:29:08

Yeah, a lot of times it felt like a theory that was tested

00:29:14

with a single study and the results were not like off the charts inconclusive

00:29:21

Just a little bit in that direction to support the argument

00:29:25

So it was used as the basis for the argument and I feel like that wasn't super effective

00:29:32

and

00:29:33

I'm not in a position to do any sort of research like she was able to do so

00:29:38

Take that with a grain of salt in the back of my mind. I have another book on my shelf

00:29:43

Which I need to dig into though. I've been thinking about this book science fictions

00:29:50

Ever since I heard a cortex episode

00:29:53

where

00:29:55

Gray and Mike were talking about what they did not like

00:29:59

regarding

00:30:01

the Daniel Kahneman book thinking fast and slow because I

00:30:06

Guess there is a whole big

00:30:08

Movement now which kind of discredits a lot of that type of research that was done

00:30:16

because it's almost impossible to reproduce and

00:30:20

I'm not sure I would have had that in the back of my mind prior to

00:30:26

Digging into that that topic a little bit and I still need to read that that book at some point to really understand

00:30:34

the full argument there but in the back of my mind now, I guess I'm kind of a little bit skeptical of any

00:30:40

single study that gets cited

00:30:44

Because I understand the formula for a lot of these authors who are trying to sell books is it's like I got a check a

00:30:51

Box to show that there was research done and I want to make compelling arguments

00:30:56

But I think getting those two to actually be in alignment is harder to do

00:31:03

Then it it seems and I guess just at the point now where I can not necessarily

00:31:10

Point out what is wrong but can kind of pass the sniff test of something is is off here. I

00:31:17

Think there's there's a lot going on on what you just said because I don't think you can ignore our

00:31:24

Current like cultural state either with that one because we have so many

00:31:29

quote-unquote science

00:31:32

articles and reviews and stuff thrown at us that at least maybe this is just me it just seems like there's

00:31:40

So much of that that happens that you kind of have to be skeptical about it because there's so many of them that compete with each other

00:31:46

And it's really hard to trust quote-unquote science as a blanket statement because there's

00:31:53

folks on all sides of it and they oftentimes want to take an

00:31:57

article and the

00:31:59

Results of the article and then interpret what you should do with it instead of just presenting here's what we found and

00:32:05

That's where I tend to struggle with it quite a bit. Maybe that's just my personal issue

00:32:09

but a lot of the science that she shares here borders on that territory of

00:32:15

Here's what we found and here's what we think you should do because of it and

00:32:20

I don't really appreciate that much at all

00:32:24

so it's tough to I

00:32:26

Think you're absolutely spot on it's really hard to take the findings that you have from research and

00:32:32

Then not go into the next step of here's what you should do about it and let people make that decision

00:32:38

Because we we don't want to trust that people will interpret it the same way that we did but that's what you have to do

00:32:45

You don't have to do it and maybe this is my opinion

00:32:49

I don't know but it does in this particular if I if I'm pinpointing what Katie milkman has done here I

00:32:56

Think it's very difficult to trust a lot of the science that she shares here because it feels like she's trying to force

00:33:05

Some of them and again not all of them, but because it happens enough it makes you question the rest of them

00:33:12

You're right. It does it does feel forced. That's a good way to describe it and there is I mean it doesn't have to be that way

00:33:19

I'm thinking back to another book that we had

00:33:24

Covered which I would argue is very

00:33:27

Research-heavy and that is the extended mind

00:33:31

by Dr. Annie Paul that one

00:33:35

seemed to have a very natural

00:33:37

progression between the research and the

00:33:41

conclusions I guess this one just feels I don't know I guess my

00:33:49

Take away from some of these research studies

00:33:53

Was I had this theory and I tested it once and I found

00:33:58

10% 20% you know a result and

00:34:02

There aren't other studies mentioned which backed that up like the way the the chapters are constructed

00:34:10

It's like a story which led to an

00:34:13

Experiment and it's a small sample size and this is what we found and then it's quickly moving on to another very

00:34:21

complicated topic

00:34:23

Without any sort of resolution in my mind

00:34:27

Yep, and this this chapter I think is kind of where I felt like well

00:34:33

We're we're jumping too quick here between like the temptation bundling

00:34:37

She also talks about you know

00:34:39

We think future me is gonna be able to make good on choices that present me can't so like future discounting that's a really

00:34:44

Big topic and then there's the gamification and why that doesn't work

00:34:49

I mean these these should all be separate chapters

00:34:54

And they're lumped together under impulsivity very loosely

00:34:58

Connected and the resolution at the end of the chapters really just

00:35:03

It does not work for me and at this point. This is where I start to realize that

00:35:07

Well, let's go to the next one because it gets worse my opinion the the clarity side of it and the next one is procrastination and

00:35:16

as soon as I got to that section which I had read the table of contents at the beginning and

00:35:23

impulsivity great and then she starts riling off some of these things that they do to help with you know fighting impulses or

00:35:31

Present bias as she calls it and we get into procrastination and she tells the story of like people putting things off or not doing them and

00:35:39

Then talks mostly about what people will do

00:35:45

to help with procrastination and

00:35:48

There's things like creating locked bank accounts where you can put money in but you're not able to get things out

00:35:54

So then you're not allowed to you know put think put off your long-term goals

00:35:58

Commitment devices of some sort some of those are cash commitment devices

00:36:02

Like you're gonna commit to doing this thing and if you don't we're gonna donate money to the organization that you are actively fighting against

00:36:09

You know like it's that sort of thing

00:36:11

she talks about sophisticated sin naivets like

00:36:14

so many different ways that you could take this but

00:36:18

My point is like I really struggled with this because how is that different than impulsivity in my mind because

00:36:25

Yes, I'm putting something off that I want to work towards long-term

00:36:29

but

00:36:30

That is essentially me acting on an impulse right now instead of doing something for later

00:36:36

So in my head impulsivity and procrastination are like

00:36:40

Two edges of the same sword. It's the same thing

00:36:44

But we're talking about it in two different ways using the exact same

00:36:47

Like terminology in some cases. So anyway, I felt like it was basically the same title and

00:36:54

So many of the things should have been broken apart and yet they could have been put together so weird

00:36:58

I don't know I struggled with it

00:37:00

Maybe that's my issue with the book to be honest is the way that the chapters are

00:37:05

Differentiated because looking at the other chapters here

00:37:08

Chapter four is forgetfulness this fits in with procrastination as well

00:37:13

And then you've got chapter five which is laziness that fits into procrastination as well and chapter six is confidence

00:37:19

That fits into procrastination as well

00:37:21

So yeah, I don't know maybe the better

00:37:26

Choice of a chapter title. I don't know it's kind of hard to piece this stuff together

00:37:31

But if I had to pick one maybe cognitive dissonance

00:37:33

Because she talks about the reason why you need these commitment devices and cognitive dissonance she defines as being at odds with yourself and

00:37:42

I feel that's a very effective definition

00:37:45

but the rest of it with the story about the

00:37:49

Banks forcing people to save and stuff like that. I feel like the formula for these chapters is

00:37:56

Trying to be kind of like extreme ownership. It's a story a principle and then kind of the resolution of the story some type stuff at the end

00:38:07

But it doesn't have a solid

00:38:10

foundational topic maybe I

00:38:12

Don't know I'm thinking out loud at at this point, but yeah procrastination covers literally everything in this entire book

00:38:20

So why are we gonna try to speak to it directly in a single chapter and again?

00:38:25

the

00:38:26

commitment devices based on the cash commitment devices specifically

00:38:30

I feel like we spent way too much time talking about those things and they still a whole bunch of questions by the time you get to the end

00:38:38

Yeah, and there's a fundamental flaw with it too because she never talks about

00:38:43

The fact that some people are not motivated by money at all

00:38:48

She makes the assumption that everyone is motivated by having to pay a fee for something when I know that myself and

00:38:56

People that I know first hand if there's a fee to pay if I don't go to the gym

00:39:04

More often than not I'm fine with just paying the fee. It's okay

00:39:09

It's not a motivator for me. I know that it is for a lot of people

00:39:13

I'm just not one of them and that's tough for some folks to get their head around I get that

00:39:19

But it just isn't a motivator and yet that was a big part of this section was a cash incentive in some form

00:39:28

I feel you know, I think you're right with like some of the lay out of the book and maybe I'm jumping ahead here with like the whole style

00:39:34

Thing but this is a case where I feel like this should have been a three-part book

00:39:37

I actually wrote this down beforehand because I felt like it was for me format at all wrong

00:39:42

I I think it should have been a three-part book. She should have explained the problems to change

00:39:48

Which are this list that we've got here impulsive the procrastination forgetfulness laziness confidence and conformity

00:39:55

Explain those problems and then give me a bank of the tactics that you're talking about to help solve that

00:40:02

So some of that is like the game if you want to use what she's got here the gamification piece the temptation bundling

00:40:08

You know all the you know

00:40:10

We'll talk about some of like the reminders and setting defaults and stuff all of those things could be a bank of all the tactics at the end

00:40:17

Or in the middle and then at the end

00:40:19

Talk to me about how to make that stick long-term sure that to me is your three-part layout

00:40:25

But I also know that if you put these titles in a table of contents

00:40:31

It's one of the first things people look at when they're glancing over a book and

00:40:34

If you see a book called how to change and you see this list of things

00:40:39

This is partly how I picked it. I saw that list like oh, yes that I want that

00:40:45

Yeah, and then when you get into it, then it starts to click a little bit

00:40:49

So anyway, it helps sell a book

00:40:50

I know that so I feel a little bit taken once I connected all those dots

00:40:54

But I'm also aware that the vast majority people are not going to critique a book the way that you and I are

00:41:00

So I'm aware of that too. I also think maybe it's

00:41:04

Personality driven like I'm trying to picture a scenario where

00:41:09

Someone who is not me and who is not you?

00:41:13

Picks up this book reads the table of contents and then reads the whole thing and is like yes

00:41:20

This is exactly what I needed

00:41:22

I'm trying to have an open mind enough to think that that is at least a

00:41:28

Ability and I know we've got our own bias on like the books that we've read and our ideal approach to this

00:41:35

Topic at at this point, but do you think that's possible?

00:41:39

That what maybe I didn't understand that that someone who is in a has a different

00:41:46

Personality

00:41:48

Then you or I do approaches this as their first introduction to the topic of behavioral change and says yes

00:41:56

This book is great. Yeah, I think that's very possible and you know

00:42:00

This is why like if you look at so I the outline I put together that connects like all these different chapters

00:42:06

And I put like the subheadings underneath of it, which is probably similar to what some of your mind knows stuff is

00:42:11

It has a lot of like the tactics for that thing and how to work towards that

00:42:17

I think if you're

00:42:19

If you don't have the background that we do or this growth mindset piece like we do

00:42:25

I could see where this is maybe the right way to do this

00:42:28

So I I want to temper some of my thoughts with that because I know that like this could be

00:42:33

The right format for people because if you look at it like okay impulsivity, what are some things to help you with?

00:42:39

preventing instant gratification desires

00:42:42

And if that's what you're working towards then

00:42:45

Yeah, that's it

00:42:48

Technically, I think you and I would both say that those fall under the procrastination world, but I think she's trying to

00:42:55

differentiate that because of the different types of

00:42:58

Tactics that she's using to fight against different forms of procrastination maybe and different sure underlying

00:43:05

Drivers for it like if you went on to the next one forgetfulness

00:43:09

She talks about using time-based reminders

00:43:12

You want to be reminded as close to the thing that you need to do as you can because you'll forget

00:43:17

You need to use Q based planning

00:43:20

Having something in place that will help you plan for the future and it's a cue to do that a memory palace

00:43:26

She talks about we talked about that before using checklists like these are helping you to remember to do things at the right time

00:43:31

Which again is a piece of procrastination as well, but it's a different form

00:43:36

So maybe that's what she's driving towards. I don't know. There's there's a lot of different ways you could interpret this

00:43:42

I think talking about chapter four

00:43:44

She mentions that the average adult forgets three things each day and then she gets into some of the stuff that you were talking about

00:43:52

Yeah, this ties back to procrastination my dominant thought as I was reading this section though

00:43:59

Was that all of these?

00:44:01

Tactics are dealing with the symptom not the disease

00:44:06

So I couldn't help my mind

00:44:09

Wandering into well the fact that we are so forgetful

00:44:14

and we're forgetting all these things is really a product of our chaotic environment and

00:44:20

again

00:44:22

hard to separate at this point from the other books that we've read on whatever topics

00:44:28

but the one that immediately came to mind was margin and I

00:44:35

feel like if you

00:44:37

were to embrace a life of margin and you were to disconnect from

00:44:43

a lot of the digital stressors that are in our culture whether they be social media news

00:44:50

Email whatever things that we just by default assume we need to have these things in our life

00:44:58

But if you really recognized that these things aren't essential and you simply eliminated a lot of those things

00:45:05

then maybe a lot of this forgetfulness stuff takes care of itself regardless of the

00:45:11

The tactics that you try to implement from this specific chapter

00:45:14

Yeah, it could be yeah, I think if you start putting a lot of the puzzle pieces together

00:45:18

There's there's a lot that you could yeah, so many thoughts might so many thoughts

00:45:24

And that is not to say that there's not good stuff in here like no she talks about

00:45:29

Cues at this point so again, we can't get away from habits, but it's right a habits book, right?

00:45:37

So she talks about the more distinctive the cue the more effective the recall

00:45:40

That's kind of directly from tiny habits by BJ Fogg

00:45:45

She talks about implementation intentions like linking your desired activities to a specific cue

00:45:51

This is all great stuff, but it feels like it's packaged to

00:45:55

solve a problem that is

00:45:58

Not as clearly defined as the other habits books that we have written

00:46:04

I mean at this point I'm talking about okay, so I've got fresh starts from chapter one

00:46:09

I want to start leveraging those and then impulsivity in

00:46:13

chapter two where

00:46:16

Future me is present me is a jerk to future me so temper that okay now chapter three procrastination

00:46:23

There's cognitive dissonance here. How do I resolve that number four forgetfulness implementation intentions?

00:46:28

You can kind of see like there's no clear connection

00:46:32

For these different dots at least in an effective way that's gonna make it stick for me

00:46:38

And that's why I asked a question in the previous chapter

00:46:40

Like do you think there's a personality type where this stuff does connect for because I have trouble aligning?

00:46:45

these dots for myself

00:46:48

Yeah, and there's there's a lot of so I think you're spot on with the personality thing and I think maybe that is part of this and

00:46:55

It's partially because

00:46:58

You know a lot of these things could be super helpful for people

00:47:02

I think there are definitely people that this entire list of tactics to help fight these things is like spot on and exactly what they need

00:47:09

Knowing an ADHD brain. There's a lot of stuff here that like yeah, that's laughable like there's no way

00:47:16

That's not gonna help

00:47:19

One iota like I know that and it's not something that I can just use a fun little have a cue card on my computer

00:47:27

When I get there at work to remember what to do that first thing like that's not gonna work because

00:47:32

I'm gonna sit down like that's in the way I need to get onto my keyboard and I'm gonna set it down and then in

00:47:37

That two and a half seconds that thing is gone and it doesn't do me any good whatsoever

00:47:42

I'm sorry Sean Blanc

00:47:44

I know you use the no-card thing, but it's not something that will work for me because I just move it and by the time

00:47:50

I get to the actual thing it's gone

00:47:52

So it doesn't work that way and there's a lot of that type of tricks here that she talks about and I know they don't work

00:47:59

Because I've tried them so

00:48:01

That adds to the skepticism on my part now that said I'm very aware that

00:48:06

A lot of these things I know work really well for my wife and she uses some of these things actively whether she realizes

00:48:15

She does it or not and if she were to read this, I'm sure there's a lot of this

00:48:19

Well, yeah, of course. How would you get anything done otherwise?

00:48:22

Like that's probably her perspective on some of this, but I'm digressing here

00:48:28

But I think you're right. There's probably a little bit of a you know, what is your tendency?

00:48:33

towards different types of prompts and are you skeptical about following through on them?

00:48:40

I think there's a lot to that. Yeah, and I know there's gonna be different strokes for different folks

00:48:46

One book that is currently being written that I am fascinated to get your opinion on is

00:48:51

I think it's called refocus and it's by Jesse Anderson and he's still working on it

00:48:58

But it's basically an ADHD approach to

00:49:02

the productivity and that was kind of the one of the light bulb moments

00:49:07

I had was his atomic essay about eat the ice cream not the frog

00:49:11

Yeah, and recognizing that there's gonna be different things that work here for different people

00:49:17

I'd so I guess yeah, you're right. We're we have to just keep iterating that this is our personal opinion

00:49:24

And it's quite possible that this works for other people but that being said yeah, it's not working for me at at this point

00:49:30

Yeah, so I guess to get back to the book here like we're on forgetfulness and

00:49:36

Some of the things she talks about that do work for people is setting time-based reminders

00:49:40

This is one that I wrote down that I'm gonna try to be better at especially using like the do app where you can get the nagging reminders

00:49:47

Setting that to go off at the time at which you are planning to do that thing

00:49:52

Could make a big big difference that's similar to like the cue-based planning because she tells stories of like they remind people to do things at the moment

00:50:01

That they're getting into the car or you're like you want to learn to like floss your teeth and not forget to do that

00:50:06

well having the cue of doing that while you are

00:50:10

Brushing your teeth can help with that. So it's that type of thing where you're trying to set up those cues and such

00:50:16

Obviously the one in this list that I thought was spot on was the checklist piece like oh, yeah

00:50:22

If you have all big bank of things, it's really hard to remember how to do guess what helps checklist. Yep

00:50:27

There you go. I'm totally on board with you on that one Katie on the topic of the cues

00:50:32

I wonder if there's a point of diminishing returns with this because you mentioned specifically a cue with the do app

00:50:39

Where it's a nagging reminder that sounds to me

00:50:44

like a plan and having too many plans she points out can be overwhelming

00:50:49

so I wonder if it would be more effective to

00:50:54

Just think about how you can make modifications to your environment so that it automatically happens that you

00:51:01

Do these little things like flossing your teeth or whatever which again?

00:51:05

I feel like there are other books that speak to that better

00:51:09

Yes, but this is one book and not a bank of books if it was intended to be a bank of books

00:51:16

You wouldn't have this one. That's true. That's true. So there's that which if we keep moving here

00:51:22

We've got laziness, which is the next one different form of procrastination

00:51:25

And she has a few different ways that you can combat that one

00:51:30

Setting defaults was the first one she talked about in in this chapter which you and I've talked about before

00:51:36

This is a big deal like if you change the defaults for how something or when something is gonna happen

00:51:43

it happens way more frequently and

00:51:46

Makes things a lot easier like if you have

00:51:49

You know different apps that will automatically open to your task list whenever you open your computer to begin with

00:51:56

Like that sort of thing makes it way easier to avoid distractions and such

00:52:00

So like that sort of thing setting those defaults is a big deal

00:52:04

I don't know anything you want to say on them like I've got a few others here

00:52:06

I can talk about the one thing that stood out to me from this chapter was the emphasis on the flexibility

00:52:14

So that in certain scenarios can be more important

00:52:18

Than a routine in terms of getting a habit to stick and I feel like I've embraced this with my running habit

00:52:25

Because there's not a specific time that I go for a run a couple times a week

00:52:31

I just know basically the day and then the day of I'll

00:52:35

Slotted on my time block plan, but I recognize that as I'm working on things

00:52:40

I'll hit a point where there's diminishing returns and in terms of my ability to create or think about something and then

00:52:47

I just kind of automatically and like okay, that's the time I'm gonna go for a run

00:52:51

Yeah, whether that's earlier later because sometimes I'm in the zone and just

00:52:56

Things are flowing and at that point

00:52:58

I'm not stopping to go for my scheduled run unless you know, I know that that's my last window for the day

00:53:05

But I feel like I would not have a consistent running habit if I had tried to be rigid with it

00:53:13

I feel like you know

00:53:14

She she does talk about habits and then talks about flexible habits like you're saying and

00:53:18

Maybe this is just me. Maybe this is my brain

00:53:22

But the concept of having a habit that I do every single day that doesn't have a set like routine

00:53:28

To it and it's just something I make sure I do every day

00:53:31

Guess what those never happen never never never never like if you told me that I wanted to make sure that I was reading a book

00:53:38

Every day, but I don't have a set time that I'm gonna do that

00:53:42

I just want to make sure it gets in that day

00:53:44

It won't happen at all. I will always

00:53:48

Move on to something else and it just does not doesn't click ever and I don't know

00:53:53

Specifically why that is maybe that comes back to the impulsivity and procrastination piece

00:53:58

I don't know some of us forgetfulness like it ties into some of those

00:54:01

It's not like I'm trying to put it off intentionally. It just I find other things that fill that time very quickly and

00:54:08

Having the set times for those pieces is what makes sure that they happen like I know first thing I'm gonna do

00:54:16

After I've cleaned myself up in the morning and gone to the restroom like I'm grabbing a book

00:54:21

And I'm gonna go sit down and make a cup of tea like that's what I do. So every single morning

00:54:26

That's when that happens otherwise

00:54:27

I'm not gonna take the time to sit down and read throughout the rest of the day because it gets too hectic and too crazy

00:54:33

And it's just not gonna happen

00:54:34

I can see that and and I think there are examples from my own life too where there are other habits that like you just described

00:54:41

I need to schedule them or they are not going to happen and I don't know how to tell

00:54:47

Which ones I need to be flexible with and which ones I need to be rigid with there are probably

00:54:52

characteristics of

00:54:54

Those that I could identify if I knew where to look but haven't figured it out yet

00:55:00

couple of the other things she talks about here is like nudging

00:55:03

Where you can like make it easier to do the thing that you want to do

00:55:07

she told the story about getting a hospital to I guess that was on setting defaults, but getting a hospital to

00:55:14

prescribe more generics instead of name brand

00:55:17

medications and how they actually fix that because the tech guy decided to push an update to how those prescriptions were

00:55:24

sent off and had it the generic tick box that was

00:55:28

Or had the name brand box that you had to check to get the name brand prescription and it was off by default

00:55:35

So then you had to turn it on in order to get the name brand and it dropped their name brand prescriptions

00:55:40

I don't even remember how much it was almost non-existent for name brand afterwards

00:55:45

Yeah, see this is this is the example of the type of research that kind of irks me with this because the way she tells the story

00:55:52

It's like it was way over here and at the end after they made the change it was way over there

00:55:58

Yep, and on a scale of zero to a hundred we went from zero to a hundred

00:56:04

Yep, and you framed it just like she did

00:56:07

Afterwards almost everybody did it

00:56:11

98% but I believe the percentage at the beginning of it was 75%

00:56:17

Sure, it's like a 20% change not a 90% change. Yep, which

00:56:23

again

00:56:24

Like that's a movement in the right direction and I'm sure it saved them a ton of money

00:56:30

But maybe there's a more powerful example to be had there

00:56:34

Seems like there would be I feel like this is the kind of thing that a tool go on

00:56:40

They would talk about in like the checklist manifesto and maybe I'm misremembering that book

00:56:45

Maybe that was similar results between this is where we were before checklist is where we were after checklist

00:56:51

But I remember walking away from that book feeling like checklist make a huge difference

00:56:57

And this is like well, yeah, we made a change that we actually went around the rules in order to do and it moved the needle a

00:57:03

moderate amount

00:57:05

Yeah, yeah, those are the ones that it's a 95% change

00:57:09

which means that like what they're actually talking about was it moved from 10% to like

00:57:15

19% is the way that they're framing that and

00:57:19

Yes, that could be qualified as a big deal

00:57:22

But depending on what the thing is you're talking about and it's actually fairly minor

00:57:27

Could be and that's that's a lot of what I think you're getting at like you have to be careful and

00:57:31

Maybe this is the skepticism we're talking about like when people are throwing science at me quote unquote science again

00:57:37

the whole

00:57:39

You know what the numbers are maybe this is the data and now analyst in me like I

00:57:44

Always assume those numbers are inflated or tweaked until proven otherwise

00:57:50

Because I know they're playing games with how they're talking about them

00:57:55

almost all the time in order to make the point they want to make and

00:57:59

I'm not saying that that's what Katie's doing intentionally here. I just think that's the norm and

00:58:05

If you fall well even in her book. She's got this piece conformity like if everybody around you is doing it that way

00:58:12

That's what they're gonna teach you to do and that's what you're going to be led to do

00:58:16

And I want to say right here that I think part of the thing that attributes to that effect is

00:58:24

actually a positive trait where it seems like

00:58:27

she is

00:58:29

Trying to trying very hard to establish

00:58:33

credibility but also express humility. I mean she's talking about I

00:58:39

Got the chance to go talk to Google

00:58:42

Name-dropping like these big companies, but that doesn't really rub me the wrong way the way that she she did it because she's trying to establish

00:58:51

credibility and if I were her I would probably do the same thing, but then she also balances it with like I

00:58:56

Did this with?

00:58:57

Angela Duckworth and I did this with these other people and

00:59:01

it always feels like trying to

00:59:05

qualify

00:59:07

some of the

00:59:08

This the statements and I know there are books that we read and they are probably typically male authors

00:59:16

who just assumed this authoritative tone and like this is the story and this is the big conclusion and

00:59:24

They might have taken a very different approach to some of these same studies

00:59:28

and they would have made these grandiose claims and they would have just told the same research but told the story differently and

00:59:35

would be very

00:59:38

Different in terms of how it comes off to the reader and I'm more sensitive to that stuff too

00:59:44

the people that kind of fit into that category for me which I recognize now having read a bunch of books

00:59:50

They do kind of rub me the wrong way are the people like the Grant Cardones and

00:59:56

The Tim Ferrisses and the Gary Vayner Chucks. Yeah, exactly Blake

01:00:03

Absolutely there it definitely exists in the productivity self-help genre and so I want to

01:00:14

clarify that but also I feel like maybe Katie needs the same advice somebody gave me one time

01:00:21

It's like you don't have to attribute all this stuff to other people like you have the ability to own your own thoughts about things

01:00:28

right, so I

01:00:31

Don't know this is a difficult concept

01:00:33

But I guess what I'm saying is even though the net effect of the research in these stories leaves me with more questions than answers

01:00:41

I also feel like it's coming from an attempt to be authentic and not present yourself as

01:00:48

The expert who knows all and that I definitely appreciate

01:00:52

Yeah, it's it's a fine line to walk the way that she's

01:00:57

presenting this because it it I think her very first story at the very beginning getting started where she's talking about I

01:01:04

Was new I went to Google I got asked this question and I didn't know what to do with it. I think that is

01:01:10

Really good the way that she presented that when it gets repeated and it comes up over and over and over again

01:01:15

And she talks about yeah

01:01:17

We went to this company we went to that company and we got called into this and this is a high-up person

01:01:21

And like that happens a lot and it's not that she's trying to be like this is me

01:01:27

It feels like it's a bit of bragging at least that was my take on it

01:01:31

And I get what you're saying like there's some sense of like using that to build credibility

01:01:36

But her very first story she did a good job of like I didn't feel like I should have been there

01:01:40

She made that comment on that one

01:01:43

That was the only one she made that comment on and I know that because it tripped me on the very first

01:01:49

And like she did that well like I remember that the very beginning

01:01:51

She made that comment and then she never did it again the whole book so well

01:01:55

I'm gonna mend a fender a little bit here because put yourself in her shoes and

01:01:59

You are writing a self-help book yep in

01:02:05

This environment, you know, you have to correct have to approach it that way, right? Yeah

01:02:10

Because it's tough. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm willing to give her a pass for that

01:02:15

I agree that it's it feels a little bit weird

01:02:18

But also it feels like something that she just has to do correct. I think what I'm trying to say is because

01:02:24

Yes, you were correct and I

01:02:27

Want to give her that pass? I think what I'm getting at is like I don't think it was written the way she intends it correct

01:02:34

Yeah, I don't think it came across the way she's intending it to come across and

01:02:37

That could be a factor of like our background or maybe it's I'll use me like I don't know about you

01:02:45

But my background and what I've interpreted from how other authors do this

01:02:50

Like that's the way I took it because I don't feel like she articulated her intentions very well on that one

01:02:57

No, I agree with that. I think this is the first book where I don't really enjoy the book

01:03:04

But I feel like I would really enjoy getting to know the person right right absolutely

01:03:09

Because I'm with you a hundred percent. There's so much of this is like I really want to go hang out with Katie

01:03:13

I guess where does that is to say like yes, we're giving her time to grief here, but I

01:03:18

Really want to hang out with her like let's let's go talk about this because I feel like I have lots of questions

01:03:23

And I feel like we could have a really fun conversation

01:03:25

We could learn a lot because I just think that what she knows and what she's been able to articulate here

01:03:31

are kind of two different categories

01:03:33

I feel like what she's learned from her research and how she's been able to do things and

01:03:38

How she can help other people do that is really great. I just think there's something off with how she articulates it in written form

01:03:47

Great. Okay laziness

01:03:49

We keep divulging maybe that's my fault divulging diverging pick the right words

01:03:54

That's that's the point. That's the moral of the story pick the right words. I'm not good at words are hard

01:03:58

Correct words are very hard. So we talk about laziness and we talk about confidence now

01:04:02

This is where I think you know you made the comment that these are all kind of a form of

01:04:07

Procrastination I think this and the next one both break that mold

01:04:12

So there's impulsivity procrastination forgetfulness laziness those four I could I in my brain

01:04:18

I can get those into procrastination

01:04:20

Confidence I feel like is very different

01:04:23

Hmm again, this is me and I say that because it doesn't feel like

01:04:29

The sort of thing that leads me to putting things off because I know that

01:04:34

Like I'm very confident in some areas, but I'm also very

01:04:38

Hesitance and other areas and feel insecure in those areas. So again, it depends on the realm we're talking about but

01:04:46

Confidence I don't and maybe I'm just thinking about it wrong

01:04:50

But I don't think of that as something that could be lumped underneath of procrastination

01:04:53

So maybe I need you to explain how you got there with that. Well, I

01:04:57

Guess there's a couple things

01:05:00

One from this chapter she talks about once we offer advice to somebody else we feel like we need to follow it

01:05:06

So it could be that we know the right thing to do and we procrastinate on

01:05:12

Doing it and then once we tell people oh you should really work out three times a week or eat healthier

01:05:19

Then all of a sudden we're able to overcome the procrastination and work out three times a week or eat healthier

01:05:25

She also talks about self efficacy in this section

01:05:29

Which is a person's confidence in their ability to control their own behavior?

01:05:33

And I feel like if you developed your self efficacy

01:05:38

You would be able to follow through on the intentions that you set an overcome procrastination

01:05:43

I don't know. I guess that connects the dots in my head

01:05:48

But there's probably another way to connect those same dots too. I will say I like this chapter. I

01:05:55

like the

01:05:58

suggestion to create a mulligan plan for exercise I put writing that's one of my action items here not specifically for writing

01:06:06

But like the different areas in my life where I want to do this consistently, but it's not an everyday thing

01:06:11

I want to figure out what my mulligan system is because tied to this idea is if you start the week

01:06:17

Well, you're more likely to follow through and finish well

01:06:21

So the idea of the mulligan is like I have

01:06:23

If I'm gonna you know work out three times a week and I do it Monday and Wednesday

01:06:29

I've still got that

01:06:30

I do that because I don't want to burn up my mulligan at the beginning of the week

01:06:33

But once I do it at the beginning of the week, it's more likely that I'm not going to need to use it at the end

01:06:39

Does that make sense did I explain that okay?

01:06:41

I think so I think if I couple what you just said with what Blake just put in the chat

01:06:47

so

01:06:48

It if I follow that if you're not confident in the task

01:06:51

I'm coming up to a higher level than what you were just talking about if I am not confident in

01:06:58

Doing the task. I'm more likely to not do it. So is that a?

01:07:02

Summation of what not summation summarization of what you're saying basically but lack of confidence in doing the task could be

01:07:10

manifested a lot of different ways

01:07:13

for me it's not a lack of

01:07:16

Confidence in my ability to sit down and crank out words

01:07:21

but maybe it's my lack of confidence in

01:07:25

Knowing what I should be writing about because I haven't taken the time to

01:07:30

Articulate what the prompt is gonna be and gain clarity on the the task at hand

01:07:36

I mean there's a lot of a lot of productivity advice that talks about project management breaking things down into bite-sized chunks

01:07:43

So that you are confident that you can take action and finish them

01:07:47

Or just having the clarity of the path forward for the thing is often enough for me to follow through when I have this

01:07:55

General idea of this thing that I need to do at some point

01:07:58

I kind of just put it off and I can figure that out later and then I wait too long

01:08:04

It's down to the deadline like force myself to sit down and figure out what really needs to be done for this

01:08:11

And then I kill myself to get it done because I'm working super hard right at the end

01:08:16

But gosh darn it. I'm gonna get it done because I committed to it right right

01:08:20

So one of the things that she mentions to help build confidence is

01:08:26

giving advice to others on the topic that you're struggling with confidence in and

01:08:32

I think this is this feels really weird it does it's so backwards, but I

01:08:39

Will never forget there was a quote in a movie movies called Luther

01:08:43

It's about the life of Martin Luther

01:08:45

not Martin Luther King junior Martin Luther and

01:08:49

He in the movie anyway, he made his mentor made the comment that we teach what we need to learn best

01:08:58

Was the way that he put it and yeah, I don't know if that comes from elsewhere

01:09:04

But that was the first place I've heard it so we teach what we need to learn best and I know this because I've talked to enough of them

01:09:12

but

01:09:13

Bloggers and podcasters and youtubers and such like people who work in the creator economy just in general

01:09:19

Apply that to the max

01:09:22

This is totally me my my entire career is built on this and it's a fine line to walk where you are saying

01:09:30

I am figuring this out and this is what I've learned as opposed to coming across as the expert

01:09:35

And this is what you need to do correct

01:09:37

But I think I think if you can figure out how to do that authentically and really for me

01:09:43

It's just framing it that way is like these are my experiments and this is what I'm learning

01:09:46

Try it on for yourself, you know, see if it works

01:09:50

But once you figure out how to how to do that

01:09:53

That's the only way to do this Sean McCabe would say teach what you know

01:09:57

Right, but what you know is what you just figured out and are most excited about correct and Gary Vee would call it documenting

01:10:03

Instead of creating like let's sure just document what I'm doing right now

01:10:08

Instead of trying to package it up in something neat and but again like if you look at creators online

01:10:14

most of what we do is give advice on how to do things and in

01:10:19

One form like it's to help the people who were able to listen to us in this case and

01:10:25

On the other hand it's to help us gain the confidence we need to follow through on the thing that we're giving advice about

01:10:31

maybe the the differentiation that needs to

01:10:34

Happen here is just getting rid of the word advice because advice feels very prescriptive. Yeah

01:10:40

Yeah, for sure. So anyway, I mean there's there's so many different ways we could take that one

01:10:44

But yes, I feel like a lot of what people do online is like yes

01:10:48

They teach and it's some of it so that we can learn ourselves or we're teaching what we're in the middle of learning

01:10:55

and I don't know if other people do this I know but

01:10:58

But I know that in my case

01:11:01

Whenever I teach something online. It's usually like okay

01:11:04

I'm gonna teach people how to do

01:11:06

This type of scripting or how to make this script work or how to let's use an omni focus example

01:11:11

Here's how you can do scheduled reviews and omni focus like I'm gonna teach people how to do that

01:11:15

How do you do that? I have no clue, but I need to do that

01:11:18

So I'm gonna go to teaching people how to do that that way I can figure out how to do it like that's see

01:11:23

even the word teaching sounds

01:11:26

better than

01:11:28

Giving advice in my opinion because it's I don't know

01:11:32

You're trying to you're authentically trying to help somebody as opposed to just solving a problem for someone right right?

01:11:38

And I you know even if you use the word consulting like whenever I've done even paid consulting

01:11:43

I feel like I learned an awful lot about myself whenever I'm consulting other people on what to do like

01:11:47

It's so weird so backwards, but yes, it does work that way

01:11:52

I guess maybe my pushback on this specific thing would be

01:11:56

To reframe this you know once we offer advice to someone else we feel the need to follow it

01:12:02

Even something as simple as once we teach somebody something we feel like we need to follow through on it

01:12:08

That seems like a less abrasive way to say that yeah for sure the other one she talks about here

01:12:15

Under the confidence umbrella is the growth mindset

01:12:18

You can't get away from Carol Dweck no matter where you want to go and she comes up here again

01:12:22

So not a bad thing

01:12:26

But anyway if you have that growth mindset

01:12:28

It helps you build your confidence in that area because you know you can always learn more and you can work towards that

01:12:34

That's my summarization of it good summary anything else on confidence Mike

01:12:38

Now it's going to the next one all right so the last one here before we get to like the wrap-up chapter is called conformity

01:12:46

just what it sounds like following social norms and

01:12:49

doing what other people are doing is the

01:12:53

Thing to change I guess but you can take advantage of that and do things for good not always like just

01:13:01

sticking to the pattern of you know herd mentality and such one of those that I thought was interesting and this is

01:13:08

Not to keep bringing up the productivity space

01:13:11

but this is definitely something that comes up a lot the concept of copy paste on

01:13:16

Habits and actions and methods. Yeah, and she calls this out because like if okay if you're not doing well in school

01:13:23

Find somebody who is and ask them how they study like that's that's the mindset right? That's the method

01:13:29

You could apply this to almost any work scenario like okay. Well, how are you producing all the things that you are?

01:13:36

How are you writing so many articles? Well, what is your writing habit look like?

01:13:41

Let me talk to somebody who does this and does it really well

01:13:44

That's what you should do if you want to be a podcaster will find somebody who's really good at it

01:13:49

Don't talk to me don't talk to Mike Mike's not good at podcasting terrible absolute horrible

01:13:54

Go listen to focus. It's way better than bookworm right so if you

01:13:58

Follow somebody who's really good at podcasting and you feel like you're not a very good podcaster

01:14:03

Talk to them figure out what it is that they do in most cases. They're probably gonna be able to explain to you some of the details of

01:14:08

Why it works well copy paste? I mean, it's just doing that but so much of the productivity space is built on that right?

01:14:14

We try to share a lot of what we're doing and then you see what other people are doing like

01:14:20

Oh, I want to try that too. So you copy paste that method into yourself

01:14:24

Which sometimes works and sometimes does not so you have to be a little bit careful with that one

01:14:28

so I really like this section because

01:14:32

If I were to summarize my entire

01:14:35

Productivity journey it would be Mike figures out how to copy and paste from other people

01:14:44

Mike gets a job teaching people to copy and paste Mike realizes that there are a whole lot of people who are putting

01:14:53

Their definitive stamp on this is the way only way to do things by saying copy and paste

01:14:58

Mike going all the way the other way and saying actually you have to figure all of this out for yourself and then coming back because she

01:15:06

Articulated it so well into saying well. Yeah, obviously this would be the logical place for anybody to start

01:15:13

I feel like the copy and paste that she describes it

01:15:17

Which is a strategy for gold achievement where you imitate the methods of someone who has achieved it that is very

01:15:23

sustained and doesn't have any of the negative flavor of

01:15:28

what I

01:15:30

dislike about certain things in the the productivity space which we kind of talked about already today I

01:15:36

Don't think this is a bad idea

01:15:38

I think you have to recognize that it's not going to be one-to-one

01:15:42

And you're not going to get the exact same results as the people that you are looking up to but yeah, if you're trying to

01:15:50

Do something better? Why not find somebody who has done it?

01:15:54

Excellently and just watch what they do and try to imitate it. I mean

01:15:58

Imitation is how kids learn kids

01:16:02

when they are

01:16:04

Real little they can't say certain words, but they hear mom and dad say them over and over again

01:16:10

And then they try to say him and it's clumsy at first and they don't understand what they mean

01:16:15

But over time they just keep imitating they keep repeating it and they just keep getting better at it

01:16:20

I feel like there's a pattern here to be followed for the rest of our life

01:16:25

With this so after reading this I actually feel a lot better about this and it kind of was one of those aha moments that helped me reconcile this

01:16:34

Cognitive dissonance in in my brain between like I don't like when people just profess

01:16:39

This is the thing to do and just do this and you'll save an hour a day every day for the rest of your life

01:16:43

but also I feel like it's a maybe bit a bit of a

01:16:49

Huge burden to go the other way and say you know

01:16:52

This is just what I did and don't try to copy this because this is only what works for me

01:16:56

And you're gonna have to figure it out for yourself

01:16:57

If I'm somebody who's receiving that advice and I'm new to this whole world

01:17:02

I might get discouraged by that and be like oh, I guess this just isn't for me

01:17:07

You know, but you can go a long way simply by

01:17:10

Imitating something that somebody else has has done

01:17:14

There there's a lot of different places you can go with this of course, but to me

01:17:19

Copy and pace is a great like starting point like what you're saying and it's very nuanced like whenever you

01:17:26

Get into task management. It's probably best to find somebody who's doing it

01:17:32

Well who works in a sector that you also work in and copy pace what they're doing like this totally fine

01:17:37

There's nothing wrong with that and then over time you'll find other people who are doing the same thing

01:17:43

but slightly different and you may tweak your methods based on that and

01:17:47

As time goes on you start to realize well, okay

01:17:50

here are all the nuances of how mine's different than theirs and then you start making those adjustments for

01:17:54

yourself and

01:17:57

Then you start the process of developing kind of your own process your own system and

01:18:02

It becomes truly yours and then you can eventually get to the point beyond that even where you start

01:18:10

Reevaluating the entire system itself like we were talking early on about task management and how

01:18:16

Like I'd use a task management kind of system

01:18:20

But it's very very morphed and very fluid and it sounds like Mike's is kind of getting into that as well

01:18:27

So like between us like we're kind of coming to that point in the journey as well where you start like

01:18:32

reevaluating entire architectures all at one time instead of what tags do I use for

01:18:38

My tasks and omni focus like it's very very high level in comparison to that

01:18:45

So anyway, all I have to say I feel like copy paste is a good place to start

01:18:49

It's okay to be in that conformity world as she's calling it here

01:18:54

But it is you know definitely a place to to get you going and it can definitely bring about great change

01:19:00

If you're willing to embrace that yeah, I think the the trick for me

01:19:05

And I'm glad she called this out in this chapter is the false consensus effect and this is where

01:19:11

we have this tendency to

01:19:15

incorrectly assume

01:19:17

That people are going to respond to the world the same way that we do and I think just recognizing this

01:19:25

Helps a lot for someone in my position who is writing about these things and sharing these things and not wanting to be disingenuous

01:19:35

And not trying to profess to have all the answers. I feel like just recognizing this false consensus effect

01:19:44

Helps mitigate a lot of that but then also once you recognize that feel free to own what works for you

01:19:51

Right right for sure. So let's let's go on to the last chapter here, which is changing for good

01:19:57

I don't really have anything to say here other than she just takes a chapter to explain that if you want to

01:20:03

Get your change to stick keep playing the tricks

01:20:08

Like keep doing the things you're like whatever the like if you're using reminders keep it up

01:20:13

if you're

01:20:15

Changing your defaults keep doing that if you are

01:20:18

Teaching people how to do something to build your confidence and keep doing that like that's it's basically what she's saying here

01:20:24

Which I don't really know how else she's supposed to end this but that

01:20:28

Seems to be a logical point to end it on and just like okay that that didn't really like tie everything off in a nice

01:20:36

Little pretty bow for me like come on. You had a chance here

01:20:39

I say that and yet I have no idea how she like what she should have done

01:20:42

So I can't see too much because I don't have a true solution for her. All right, so let me propose a different

01:20:48

Scenario here before we get into the

01:20:52

Style and rating okay, how to change the science of overcoming procrastination by Katie milkman

01:21:01

All right, okay chapter one is getting started chapter two is impulsivity

01:21:08

Chapter three is integrity

01:21:10

Chapter four is forgetfulness

01:21:12

Chapter five is laziness chapter six is confidence chapter seven is conformity chapter eight is changing for good. How do you feel?

01:21:21

About this book after chapter eight. Okay, so

01:21:25

Explain your change from I understand your overall book concepts

01:21:32

What's under integrity that was the one that you changed?

01:21:36

Everything else is exactly the same, but this is all about not doing what we say we're going to do sure

01:21:43

That's why we have these commitment devices. That's why the banks automatically

01:21:47

Will save things for us and charge this appendity if we don't go over or if we don't follow through with it the

01:21:53

overly optimistic people and

01:21:55

Their ability to overcome self-control problems through willpower

01:21:58

Like this is all about follow-through in this this chapter in my opinion. Yeah, so that's why I branded integrity

01:22:05

But you could pick a different term there and you still kind of see the arc now though

01:22:09

All of this stuff tying back to procrastination as the big idea

01:22:14

Instead of getting from where you are to where you want to be

01:22:18

Hmm. I like it Mike because you're true

01:22:20

I even like the term like integrity like it's basically following through on what you've intended or committed to right?

01:22:27

Yeah, when I look at I had the three points there the locked bank accounts the commitment devices the sophisticated and naive

01:22:34

like those are all right in that category. So yeah, I could get on board with that and

01:22:39

I suspect that my opinion of the entire book is probably quite different if that were the case

01:22:44

Because looking at the the chapter and the arc here because chapter 8

01:22:52

Like you said, this is the big bow on the end and inspiring us to keep going talking about how change actually requires a lifetime of treatment

01:22:59

Maintaining change is easier than initiating it need to rethink your strategies from time to time

01:23:04

This is the call to action to just keep going but the call to what yep the call to fix what?

01:23:10

To achieve my maximum potential to become who I want to be I don't feel like that's the right

01:23:18

Call to action based on the content that we got

01:23:21

But if you're calling me to live a life where I don't succumb to procrastination anymore

01:23:27

That feels very much more achievable

01:23:30

So I guess I say that just because having talked through this with you

01:23:34

I didn't realize this until we were starting to talk through this that a lot of this stuff does tie back to the topic of procrastination for me and

01:23:41

the issue I had with the

01:23:44

disingenuousness really is just kind of a mislabeling of

01:23:49

The promise at the beginning of the the book. So this would be

01:23:54

Okay, I think what this is is a disconnect between

01:23:58

expectations and reality

01:24:02

right is that fair because yep what we expected seems to have a disconnect from what we've

01:24:08

like worked our way through here and

01:24:10

That's not necessarily bad in every case

01:24:15

But when you critique books at the level that we're critiquing them. I think that's a fairly major

01:24:21

miss and I don't know if I should put that on Katie or if I should put that on

01:24:27

the publisher because I suspect

01:24:31

Again, like if you follow what I was talking about earlier, that is a really good point

01:24:36

If I see a book that says how to change and has this particular

01:24:41

Outline to it with impulsivity procrastination forgetfulness laziness and so on if I see that list and it says how to change like

01:24:48

that's what got me to commit to it and

01:24:51

I'm quite certain. That's a lot of what has sold the book to date

01:24:55

but what you're proposing would be a more accurate representation I think of

01:25:00

What's inside of it, but I'm not

01:25:04

Convinced that's necessarily Katie's part in the fight. I suspect like that may not even be her call to make no

01:25:11

Absolutely not. So I think it's possible that there is

01:25:17

Something else involved there because you know obviously she's wanting to get her

01:25:21

Research out there and this does do that for sure. I just don't know how much of like the overarching

01:25:28

Format of this was outside her influence. So I I want to keep that in mind as well because I'm very aware like publishers

01:25:37

Have tons of weight on what goes into the final product?

01:25:42

We're an authors writing it because they're of course trying to sell it. So there's definitely a marketing play into what's in the book as well

01:25:50

So there's that all right. So there's the book should we step into action items?

01:25:56

Let's do it. This will be fun. I didn't mention this

01:26:00

Earlier on when we did it but in the getting started section where we're talking about fresh starts

01:26:04

That made a lot of sense to me that like those are really good times to make changes and

01:26:10

That those are the times to implement those

01:26:12

I know that there's a lot of things that I'm in the middle of trying to change and I feel like just paying attention and looking out for those

01:26:20

Could be helpful some of those are big scale some of those are small scale

01:26:24

And I feel like just noticing those would be helpful no idea how you

01:26:28

Mark that one off, but it's a good thing to keep an eye on the other one I wrote down is to be more intentional with

01:26:36

time-based

01:26:38

reminders and cues I guess because I'm I'm really bad about I need to do this next Friday and

01:26:45

I can put it on a Friday list. I can put up the reminder for it

01:26:51

I can make a do reminder for it, but I'm not good about picking when that happens

01:26:55

I just kind of set it for seven or eight o'clock that morning and like

01:26:58

Oh, yeah

01:26:59

I need to do that today and then I get it out of the way and then it's gone and then it doesn't happen

01:27:03

So I need to figure out a better way to to do that

01:27:07

so I've got those two that I'll formally commit to but I also know that like there's a lot here that

01:27:11

Like we've talked about or we've discussed

01:27:14

but I hadn't really thought about them in this way with a book about procrastination and I haven't really

01:27:20

Processed that in that form. So I think I need to

01:27:24

Sit with us a little bit and see what comes from it. So anyway, I'll commit to those two for now. All right

01:27:30

I've got two also

01:27:32

that I mentioned as we went so the first one was to

01:27:36

Recognize and find more opportunities for those fresh starts. I guess in terms of follow-up

01:27:42

I'll make a list of the times that I identify whether I'm going to use them right now or they're

01:27:50

In the future. I feel like having a list of those times would would be helpful

01:27:55

And then the other one is to create that mulligan plan and it's just simply I'm gonna

01:28:01

Exercise three times a week or whatever run however many times a week and then if I don't do it on

01:28:07

This day, then I give myself permission to take the mulligan, but I'm still shooting for like the number of times per week

01:28:13

Streaks does a great job of tracking the sort of stuff because you can actually

01:28:18

Track like I want to do this X number of times a week and then once you're done it for the week it it

01:28:23

completes the

01:28:25

The habit right I don't think I want to track it necessarily there

01:28:29

But I want to actually write out and articulate my plan for the different areas of my life that I want to be able to use

01:28:36

The mulligans makes sense like I said brings us to style and reading

01:28:42

I don't know how much more I should say about style since we've spent like half this episode talking about the style of this book

01:28:47

but I will just say like I feel like there's a lot to be gained from

01:28:52

Passing this through maybe a different set of editors potentially

01:28:57

I think you're right Mike and that there's a lot of this that could be just relabeled and the content could stay the same at the same time

01:29:05

I I really want her to spend some more time making this a little more I

01:29:11

Guess connectable would be I don't know if that's the right term for it

01:29:15

But something that makes it easier to grasp and relate to in a way that

01:29:20

makes sense long-term

01:29:23

because there's a lot of this is geared towards like short-term effects like I did this and it made this met massive difference and then I got that and

01:29:31

It only lasted for a week or it lasted for a month or this was over two months like there was a lot of that

01:29:37

Which is why she had to put the last chapter of how do you make this permanent?

01:29:41

Which was basically just keep doing it don't take the the prompts away and it it felt a little

01:29:48

Shortened because of that not a short book, but it just doesn't seem to connect real well

01:29:54

So I'm not sure what needs to change there other than just maybe a slight tweak to how some of the research and stories are shared

01:30:00

We've obviously talked about the labeling piece and how to make those edits. So

01:30:06

Overall as like far as a book though

01:30:09

Like there's a lot here that I feel like I I learned something from there

01:30:13

There's a lot of stuff here that's definitely spot on especially if you're brand new to behavior change

01:30:17

Like this could be very helpful. I'm aware that some personality types are gonna gravitate towards this and it's gonna be amazing for you and

01:30:25

I envy you in this case and I just know that there's a lot of this that doesn't apply to me

01:30:31

Knowing how my brain works and knowing that I've tried some of this stuff and it doesn't work even close

01:30:36

That is something. It's a red flag to me. So I I'm not aware that I have to watch some of that

01:30:42

So again, I think there's some really good things in here and I've definitely learned some things from this

01:30:47

I you know the whole concept of I want to get one good nugget out of a book and then it was worth the read it definitely does have that

01:30:54

Like I'm not like I'm it's not like I'm upset that I picked this to go through. So it's definitely something

01:30:59

I'm grateful for having red just have a lot of critiques. That's all

01:31:03

So there's just a lot of things that I feel could be improved that said as far as how to radate

01:31:07

If I focus on all the negative side of course

01:31:11

I could get myself down to a two if I wanted to just focus on those one or two great nuggets

01:31:15

I could probably get myself to a 4.5 like I could get there. It's definitely not five territory

01:31:19

So as far as like what I want to rate this has I think I am gonna still put this at a 4.0

01:31:24

Like I know that it's got a lot that it needs I find but at the same time if you kind of

01:31:33

Work your way around some of these bigger categories

01:31:36

Like and maybe don't get too hung up on

01:31:38

semantics on what she titles the chapters and

01:31:42

focus on a lot of like the little tricks and the tactics that she has underneath of those and

01:31:47

Divorce them from the chapter title if you do that. There's a lot of really cool

01:31:51

Research here and a lot of good little tips and tricks to help you get past some of the hang-ups you have to making

01:31:59

change in your life and

01:32:01

She's not wrong like using those tips long-term can be helpful. I just wanted to wrap it up better

01:32:07

That's all so I will still put it at 4.0. That's probably a bit of a surprise rating

01:32:11

All right

01:32:12

Well, I still have my issues with some of the stuff like the New Year's resolutions

01:32:17

You will never convince me that those are actually there you should be doing Mike

01:32:21

But that being said I do feel like there's some good stuff in here her style is I don't think really my

01:32:30

cup of tea if

01:32:32

I was gonna have to rate this based off of you know

01:32:37

My outline and going through it on my own I was ready to rate it at a 3.0

01:32:42

Having talked through it with you and recognizing that if it's framed through the lens of

01:32:47

Overcoming procrastination this makes a lot more sense to me. I would probably rate it at a 4.0

01:32:53

I'm gonna split the difference and label it and rate it at 3.5 again

01:32:59

I think there's some good stuff in here

01:33:00

It really just doesn't tie together well for me and I don't think you can just discount the fact that

01:33:07

the

01:33:08

Title feels a little misleading and being like oh, it's not her fault. It's the it's the

01:33:14

The publisher the editor or whatever like ultimately your name is on it

01:33:19

So this is your message and it just feels a little disjointed to me

01:33:25

There is some good stuff in here especially viewed through the lens of overcoming procrastination as opposed to

01:33:31

Forever behavior change again if you're looking for a behavior change book

01:33:36

there is

01:33:37

There are better resources in my opinion than than this one, but I

01:33:42

am really fascinated by the title of overcoming procrastination

01:33:45

I don't know that we have addressed a book specifically designed to do that

01:33:51

Maybe that's a hole in the market that seems like an opportunity for someone to write that specific book

01:33:57

But that's how this that's what this one feels like

01:33:59

As soon as I frame it that way a lot of this stuff. I see the arc now. I can see the the flow

01:34:06

I'm not sure if I would recommend this one. It's hard for me to say yeah pick up a book titled this but disregard the title

01:34:13

This book is not about how to change. It's how to deal the procrastination. Yeah, I don't I don't know how to reconcile that in my brain

01:34:23

I do think like you said I am glad that I read it

01:34:28

There's some nuggets in here that are going to stick with me. Yeah, how moment with the copy and paste and

01:34:35

my issue with the experts in the productivity field

01:34:40

And not wanting to be one of those guys

01:34:43

And I say guys because they almost all are our guys the ones that I can I can picture in my head

01:34:49

I feel like that's valuable

01:34:51

But overall I don't know not not my favorite book

01:34:55

I want to reiterate though that this is the first time going through a book where I didn't really enjoy the book

01:35:02

But I walk away from it being impressed with the person

01:35:06

I don't know I feel like when I read books at this point. I am not easily impressed

01:35:11

Sure, so the fact that I feel this way about Katie milkman is a little bit

01:35:19

Surprising to me, but I do think that

01:35:24

There is a better story to tell from the research that she has done

01:35:31

And I feel like she is on to something with some of this stuff

01:35:35

It just needs a little bit of refinement in how it is packaged sure all right

01:35:41

Let's put that one on the shelf Mike

01:35:43

What's what will we cover next time next time is?

01:35:47

Personal Socrates by Mark champagne have you started this book yet? No, I'm gonna pick it up when I get home tonight

01:35:55

All right. Well, it's gonna be interesting. It's definitely

01:36:00

Gonna break the format so we'll have to talk about how we're gonna handle that. I have read the

01:36:07

introduction and he shares a story about how

01:36:12

he was

01:36:14

Running this company that had made this this app and I forget the name of the app

01:36:18

But it had a gazillion downloads millions and millions of downloads and he was

01:36:23

Hovering over the button to completely delete it from the app store

01:36:26

And he was gonna completely change his life and at the back of the book it says at any point

01:36:30

We are one question away from a different life. Yeah, so I

01:36:34

Love this this topic of asking the right questions

01:36:39

And I feel like this is gonna be a fascinating conversation

01:36:41

but

01:36:43

It'll be also be interesting because we're gonna have to figure out how to make it work for for bookworm

01:36:47

Yeah, those are sometimes fun books though

01:36:49

I will say like I got the book on the mail and I thought I had ordered the wrong thing

01:36:56

Because it showed up in its own box

01:36:58

Like it's got an actual box to go on the shelf

01:37:02

So you could pull it out of the box as you're gonna read it and when I got it

01:37:05

Wait, did I accidentally order like a CD version of this like what is this?

01:37:09

Like oh no, it's just packaged really nice. That's what it is

01:37:13

So that's been my first impression of it so far. So anyway, that one we'll cover next time following that

01:37:19

You need to pick up unwinding anxiety

01:37:22

By Judson Brewer this one might follow some of the same track. We just finished which is okay

01:37:29

But it's about the new the subtitle here new science shows how to break the cycles of worry and fear

01:37:36

to heal your mind and that's

01:37:39

I feel like something that's been heavy on a lot of people's minds

01:37:43

Worry and fear and anxiety and such and I feel like it would be good to just work through that a little bit together

01:37:50

whether we have our own anxiety that we need to work through which I know I do at least some and

01:37:54

Also understanding it well enough to help other people with it as well

01:37:59

So I feel like it would be a good one for us to cover sounds good any gap books my friend. I do I

01:38:06

have one called

01:38:08

digital dollars and cents by Jody Grunden I

01:38:12

am trying to up my

01:38:15

financial game

01:38:18

All right, I want to understand

01:38:20

counting better

01:38:22

specifically as it pertains to

01:38:24

businesses so this is a book that was recommended to me and I'm looking forward to

01:38:30

Diving into it. I know it's not going to be everybody's cup of tea, but I tend to find books that help me

01:38:38

Solve a problem that I am currently experiencing in my life. This is the one that is

01:38:43

Staring me in the face. So sure I want to I want to know what

01:38:48

What's going on?

01:38:49

Yep, sounds good. I don't have a gap book this time around though

01:38:53

I'm working on like adding more reading time to my schedule. I feel like I've been running too fast

01:38:57

I need to slow down so he goes so anyway, no gap books for Joe. However, I am very very grateful for those of you who have

01:39:05

Joined us live today and for those of you especially who are a part of our bookworm club membership program

01:39:13

We're super grateful to have you in the club and it's thanks to you that we're able to keep putting this show on and

01:39:20

Keep buying the books and keep

01:39:23

keep producing these so we're very grateful to you and

01:39:26

It's not just our undying gratitude that you get when you support the show from your five dollars a month

01:39:33

But you also get a really cool

01:39:35

desktop background mics my node vials and such

01:39:39

access to a special place on the club

01:39:43

Which is like a forum so if you go to club.bookworm.fm/membership

01:39:49

It will get you there and you can sign up and we'd love to have you as part of that club

01:39:54

Alright, so if you are reading along with us

01:39:57

Pick up personal Socrates by Mark champagne and we will talk to you in a couple of weeks