Bookworm Transcripts

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We've only got one action item here.

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I talked about mine last time with the Maslek Burnout Inventory.

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Did you take this?

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- I did take this, and I borderline regret taking this.

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I'm old school and printed it, Mike.

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I felt like an old man when I, like,

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I am the person who regularly said,

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well, just sign it digitally.

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Like, you don't need to print this and then write on it

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and then re-digitize it.

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Like, I'm the person that has said this for years.

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And then whenever I pulled this up and saw all the stuff on it,

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I was like, oh, okay.

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And then I just hit print, went and picked it up off the printer.

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And when I got back to my desk, I realized,

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oh no, I just did that thing that I tell people not to do.

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I should probably stop telling them to not do it

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since I just did it.

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Anyway, I printed-- - You're gonna print out

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your emails and keep them in folders next, too?

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- Probably.

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I'm gonna have a filing cabinet back here.

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You know, you got the red bins back there.

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There's gonna be this great big filing cabinet right next to it

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for long and that's where my email goes.

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I will have an assistant who prints every email that comes to me

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and then I can literally throw it in the trash or file it.

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- Now, someone used to print out emails right on them

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and say, can you get back to this person

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and, like, hand me the paper?

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(laughs)

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- I'm not quite that bad.

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Though some people would rather I did that

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because then it would mean they would get a response from me.

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- Sure.

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Okay, so Joe's burnout test results,

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burnout inventory is the technical.

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I know there's a few of these out there,

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but the one that I took has a burnout section,

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a depersonalization and personal achievement section.

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Is this the same one you did?

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- I think so.

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- That sounds right.

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- The terms sound a little bit different,

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but that second one specifically,

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but just talk us through your results,

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maybe it'll make sense.

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Well, basically each section has three different zones.

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You're either in low level burnout, moderate burnout,

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or high level burnout.

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And I did very well on all three,

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as in I got high level burnout on all three.

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So,

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that's a problem

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that I need to do something about.

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And was not, I have to admit that going into this,

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I was not expecting it to show

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that Joe was in high level burnout territory.

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Like I was fully expecting this to be like,

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maybe moderate, like low level to moderate.

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That's what I was expecting.

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This wasn't even close.

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Like it was just way high on all of them.

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As in like the second one,

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if you got a 12 or greater on this list,

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you're in high level burnout.

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I got a 22.

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Okay, that's significant.

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So anyway, that just tells me that

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I need to maybe back off.

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Unnumber of things, do a little,

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you know, maybe one of Mike's personal retreats

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takes some time, that sort of thing,

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get some separation.

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- Yeah, you do.

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- All the things, right?

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I need to do some work on Joe,

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basically is what I'm hearing.

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- All right, well.

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- Not fun.

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- You should definitely do a personal retreat.

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I think I've given you access to the course.

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- Oh, probably.

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- But if you're serious about it,

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I will hook you up if you need it.

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I'll hook everybody else up too.

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I'm gonna commit right now.

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I'll give 50% off the personal retreat handbook.

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Anyone who uses the coupon code help Joe out.

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- All right, help Joe out.

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Go to a personal retreat for yourself as well.

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- That's my mission.

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You know how Sean McCabe has his mission

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to get every company in the world,

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takes the badicals,

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like my mission is to have everybody in the world

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take a personal retreat.

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- Nice.

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All right, do you have a way to quantify that?

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- No.

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- Okay, fair point.

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I like it.

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Anyway, that was all I had for follow up.

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I did do it, was not thrilled with the results,

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have not shared the results of this with my wife yet.

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That's this afternoon's point of conversation.

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So I'm gonna take the paper home,

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lay it on the table and say, I have a problem.

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- What do you think's gonna happen with that?

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- She's probably gonna look at me and be like,

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yeah, I know.

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(laughing)

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That's fully what I expect.

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So she knows me better than I know me.

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So she's good, she'll know.

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And then she'll probably know exactly what it is

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I need to do as a result.

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- Cool.

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So is there anything,

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it kind of sounds like you've got more digging to do with this,

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but having taken it, is there any low hanging fruit

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of like, this is what I'm gonna do starting right now,

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tomorrow, whatever, to try to move away from the edge.

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You know, because I had somebody email me

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who has a lot of experience with a lot of the concepts

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that we talk about.

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You didn't say I could share the email,

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so I'm not gonna mention who it is,

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but mentioned the burnout stuff specifically,

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like kind of warned me, hey, be careful,

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sounds like you're real close to an edge.

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If your scores are all high,

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I would argue you're probably close to the same edge.

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So I wouldn't put off doing what you can do about it.

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Obviously, it doesn't mean you have to completely

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change your lifestyle, quit your job, all that kind of stuff.

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But.

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- Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.

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I know there's, the easy one is,

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I know that I need to back off of the number of hours

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of work I put in a week.

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Like that one I know,

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I'm regularly told I work too much.

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And part of that's because I really love what I do,

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but at the same time, like I do it so much

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that it becomes a problem and becomes a strain.

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So, yes.

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Some of that might actually be,

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and again, I'm very, like this is hot takes, right?

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Some of that might just be workload.

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And because it's a church and because it's like my arena,

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it feels like there's this thing that I want to have done

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and I'm the one who can do it

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and there's not anyone else who can do it.

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Like that's the mentality that comes with it.

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So then I will run ragged trying to get that thing done

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because it's something I believe in.

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Instead of realizing that I maybe need to back off a bit

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and get some help,

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like that might actually be the real answer.

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But again, that's a hot take.

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And that just because I say that doesn't necessarily mean

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that it's an easy thing for me to go just get help.

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So. - Yep.

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- Understood. - So it is.

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So I gotta do some more deep diving on it,

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ask some questions.

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I at least have some numbers and some technical now

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that I can have a conversation with a couple different people

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about it, so.

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Start with a conversation with Becky.

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And then depending on the obvious things

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that I'm overlooking that she can see very plainly,

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I will then embark on a conversation with my boss

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and move from there.

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So. - All right.

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- It's probably the right path at this point.

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- Good luck.

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- Thanks.

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Here's hoping it goes well.

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I don't know why I wouldn't.

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Being able to have the conversation

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is half the battle it seems like.

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- Yep.

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Agreed.

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Well, since that's the only action,

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I might guess it's time to talk about today's book,

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which is The Creative Act by Rick Rubin.

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And this is an interesting one.

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It's thick.

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If you count the number of pages,

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you probably got worried when you cracked it open

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'cause it's like 400 something,

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but it is very similar, I would say, in style to,

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was it the practice by Seth Godin that we read

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with all the really short little chapters?

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- That sounds right, yeah.

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I think that was the one.

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And this one actually goes a little bit quicker

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because they all tend to start

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on the right hand side of the page.

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- Yes.

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- So there's a lot of blank space in this one.

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And I kind of like that.

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You can kind of pick through and read little snippets

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wherever you want.

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It's one of those books that's easy to kind of just open

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to a random page and get something from it.

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There are no sections with this book.

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Just I counted 78 chapters.

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- You didn't even number them,

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which is kind of frustrating to me.

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Like I always want to know how many there are.

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But come on, tell me, I want to know.

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Please. - Right. (laughs)

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We're not gonna obviously cover all of those

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or list them all.

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I'm gonna grab a small sampling of the ones

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that kind of spoke to me and then start the conversation,

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go from there, I guess.

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Before we get into the specifics of it though,

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what was your first impression of the material of this book?

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When you picked up this book,

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called the Creative Act, a way of being,

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what was your initial mental state going into it?

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And I say that as people who make stuff for the internet.

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So we probably tend to skew more towards the people

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who consider themselves creative

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versus those who don't.

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But I feel like the mindset you go into it

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with is kind of important.

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So where were you when you first started this one?

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- Yeah.

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So I'd seen, this book is one of those

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that's been making the rounds in our circles.

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I've seen it posted about and mentioned and screenshots

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and all sorts of stuff.

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I guess not a screenshot, but pictures of this book

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in a variety of places for a while.

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And by a while, I mean for about a month and a half,

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month, month and a half or so.

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I suppose it just came out first of the year.

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So somewhere on second week of the year on.

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And the snippets that I've seen of it

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and then seeing the title,

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this is all preconceived expectations

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prior to even receiving the book.

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So there was no way for me to actually look at it

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and see my viewpoint on it at this point.

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But with all of that as the background,

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I kind of had it in my head that it's similar to

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Walden Pond, like the,

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oh shoot, I just drew a blank on the author's name.

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That is bad, that's real bad.

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Okay, Walden Pond, somebody in the chat looked it up for me.

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Walden Pond is a story, whatever this author's name is,

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basically is like explaining like noticing

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and viewing things and living life

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and what it's like to live life as a creative in nature.

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And like he builds his own log cabin

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and he's, it's overlooking Walden Pond.

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And it's one that like that concept is,

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it's about his journey of being in,

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like learning how to be in the present,

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there you go, thorough.

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And it's about thorough's journey of learning

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to be in that cabin and just experience

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things around that cabin.

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That's what I kind of had in my head.

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And I'm aware that that's not really a true correlation

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because thorough's not talking about creative endeavor.

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He's talking about noticing frogs on a pond,

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like that type of thing and learning how to be in the moment

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and noticing how conversations happen

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when people walk by and all those things.

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So he's just learning to be present with that.

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Now there's a lot more to it.

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I'm dumbing that way down.

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That was kind of what I was expecting out of this book.

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So like that's the preconceived notion that I had before,

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before I really dove into this.

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So I don't know how those two books would compare

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in a technical stance, their worlds apart

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as far as like what they're talking about.

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But that was kind of where I was starting with,

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starting from on this one.

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- Sure.

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Cool.

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Well, let's jump into the actual material here.

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I wanna start the first section that I wanna talk about

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is actually the third chapter, I guess,

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the source of creativity.

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But I do want to back up just a little bit before that

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because the first chapter here is everyone is a creator.

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And I feel like this is a very strong opening to the book.

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And obviously a theme that I wholeheartedly believe in.

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But at the very beginning,

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he's laying the foundation that everyone is creative.

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Creativity is not a rare ability.

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Create, he defines it for us is to bring something

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into existence that wasn't there before.

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And also what you make doesn't have to be witnessed

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or recorded.

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So you don't have to share it with the entire world

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in order to be a creator.

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Now that's important because I feel like you have

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to have that foundation that you have the ability

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to create regardless of what you do for a living,

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whether you've ever written, published, made,

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anything, shared it publicly.

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The next thing then, the third chapter, I guess,

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I just numbered these in my my node file.

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So I have numbers with these and I'll share those

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as I go here, but that's not actually what the number is.

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I'm possible I missed numbered them or something.

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You know, but.

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- Okay, so don't trust Mike's numbers.

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We don't know if he can count.

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- They are rough estimates of where these things are

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in the book.

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(laughs)

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- Okay, all right.

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- So this is why I use page numbers.

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- Ah, I could use page numbers.

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I have those for quotes, but not for the chapters.

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I don't think those are--

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- Anytime I've got like a note,

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how to read a book 101.

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So this is maybe 201, I don't know what it is.

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But whenever I have a note about a book

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that I put, whether it's a digital or paper, it doesn't matter.

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It doesn't matter if it's just a thought that's disconnected

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and it goes to a different chapter.

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Whatever page I'm on right now,

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when that thing goes into the book notes,

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that's the page number I write down.

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Because whatever is on that page is what triggered

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the connection that I'm wanting to write down.

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Whether it's a direct quote or whether it's that specific

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comments on that page, it doesn't matter.

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But that's the page that triggered that thought.

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- Gotcha.

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Interesting.

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- I'm weird.

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Well, everyone's got their own approach.

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- No, this is the right way to do it.

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- Okay.

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- It's not an approach.

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- This is a fact.

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This is the perfect way to take the notes.

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- Well, I will tell you that my way of taking notes

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is probably not the right way for a lot of people

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'cause it's pretty crazy, but it works for me.

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- I mean, just look at your mind node files.

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Like that's pretty like, I love looking at your mind node

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files, like I could not take notes like that.

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And I'm aware of it, there's no way.

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It would drive me bonkers.

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- Yeah, that's fair.

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- So all that to say, number three on my mind node

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is the source of creativity.

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And this is the point where he starts to talk about

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how the stuff that you make things from is all around us.

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But the brain takes that stuff and then spins it

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to make you think like it is coming from within you.

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And I like that picture.

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I feel like that is very much in line with my thinking

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and understanding of the whole creative process

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that I've talked about with like the five Cs of creativity

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where you capture things that have your attention

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out in the world, like from the books that we read.

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You curate those, put them in your system.

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And then I've got a thing where I cultivate them

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and I see what is actually there.

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Then I connect them with other ideas.

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The whole idea is syntopical reading,

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going back to how to read a book.

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And then ultimately there is an expression

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where you create something.

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And this is kind of priming the pump for that.

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This is talking about how you take things that are around you.

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And even if you don't understand the process that happens,

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you bring them in and then you put them back out.

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Basically it's like breathing.

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There's inhalation and exhalation.

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And I am able to see how this applies

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to the way that I curate.

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Curious what you think about this idea.

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- Well done asking this question

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because this is like the starting point

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of where I started to connect.

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That this was going to be a book that was like high level.

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Look at this whole thing from a third person view.

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And it's kind of how the book's written.

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Like looking at this from an external perspective.

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Which is probably the correct way to do this style.

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So he's not wrong in that.

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Rick Rubin's not wrong in that style choice.

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It's just a viewpoint that I was not quite prepared for

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coming into it.

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'Cause like we've,

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think about all the books that we've read recently.

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Like they've got a three part layout.

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They've got maybe 10, 12 chapters.

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They've got a bunch of stories.

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They have a cadence to tell me a story,

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tell me about the story.

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What should I do with it?

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Tell me a story, tell me about the story.

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Tell me what I should do with it.

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Like they have that cadence

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that walks you through the whole thing.

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This is worlds apart from that.

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There are not that many stories in this.

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And there are very high level viewpoints of the whole thing.

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And this is exactly that in full form

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because it's showing like the outsiders view,

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like outside component view of what's going on with creativity.

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Like you're having these external inputs

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and then it makes us think that things are coming from

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inside of us, but it's really not,

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but it's how it feels.

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But again, that's like something removed looking at it.

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And it was at this point in the book,

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it's like, okay, I feel like in order for me to

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embrace his thought process for the rest of this book,

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I kind of have to take on this mentality.

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The question is, do I trust that mentality

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and that foundation that we're setting on, right?

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'Cause then like the rest of the book is dependent on this.

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It's true.

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Because that's the foundation

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of what he's gonna give us through the rest of the book.

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So the source of creativity being kind of outside of us

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versus inside of us,

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I think it's really hard to say

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where that's truly coming from

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because I think it's so interconnected

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between those two, which I think he would completely agree with.

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Like it's my previous experiences connecting

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with the new experiences, which are then creating

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this new seemingly new idea.

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Our seed is he'll refer to it, which we'll talk about later.

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And I think that makes sense.

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I don't think I have arguments with that.

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You know, I think I'm on board.

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Primarily because I know that so much of creativity is

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externally dependent and yet it's also dependent

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on my previous experiences,

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which come from both internal and external viewpoints.

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So I think it's spot on.

00:19:32

It's just a little bit of a roundabout way

00:19:34

of getting my head there, which I think is a lot of this book.

00:19:37

Like there was a lot of times I was like reading this.

00:19:39

Okay, hold on a minute.

00:19:43

Let me reread that section 'cause race car brain

00:19:47

jumped ahead and I'm not real sure what he's talking about.

00:19:50

So I had to slow down a lot on this one.

00:19:53

- Yeah, you can't read this like you read

00:19:56

most of the books that we cover for Bookworm.

00:19:59

There's no blinkest version of the message here.

00:20:01

There's just a whole bunch of little anecdotes

00:20:05

which could serve as inspiration

00:20:07

and really change your mindset around how creativity works.

00:20:12

For example, I mean, this is kind of supporting material

00:20:15

here in chapter two, where it's titled tuning in

00:20:19

basic idea here is that we've got these antenna

00:20:23

for creative thought and we develop the sensitivity

00:20:26

for creative signal.

00:20:26

That's kind of the capture phase of my creativity flywheel.

00:20:30

But he says that in chapter two,

00:20:33

if you have an idea and you don't do something with it,

00:20:34

it's gonna find its voice through another maker.

00:20:37

The signal is out there.

00:20:38

You just have to connect with it

00:20:40

and then you have to express it.

00:20:42

And chapter four is also very much in alignment

00:20:45

with this awareness, right?

00:20:47

The awareness, the program is happening around us

00:20:50

and we just observe it.

00:20:51

So it's not a state that you force

00:20:53

and while you can't change what you're noticing,

00:20:55

you can change your ability to notice.

00:20:58

He talks about how the universe is only as large

00:21:00

as our perception of it.

00:21:02

There's lots of really profound stuff in here.

00:21:05

If you take it in isolation and I'm trying to condense it

00:21:07

into some bigger ideas for the sake of the outline.

00:21:12

But all of that is, like you said, foundational.

00:21:16

I think the next place I wanna go is the fifth chapter,

00:21:20

the vessel and the filter.

00:21:21

And I know I said we weren't gonna cover all of them

00:21:23

and I've so far mentioned every single one.

00:21:26

I'm not gonna do that for the rest of the book, I promise.

00:21:28

These are just, like I said, really foundational.

00:21:31

You have to buy into this idea

00:21:33

or otherwise at this point,

00:21:34

you're probably getting ready to put the book down.

00:21:37

That was not the approach that I had.

00:21:39

He is speaking my language.

00:21:42

But number five talks about how each of us

00:21:45

has a container that is constantly being filled with data.

00:21:50

And I thought of with this,

00:21:52

all the stuff that we've read by Chris Bailey over the years.

00:21:58

And the one visual in particular from hyperfocus

00:22:03

where he talks about the quality of the information

00:22:09

that you collect and there's like that X and Y graph.

00:22:14

And it actually goes the other way.

00:22:17

I'm trying to do this visually on a reverse camera.

00:22:19

It's not working.

00:22:20

But you invest time in these things that are entertaining

00:22:25

but they maybe aren't helpful to you.

00:22:29

I don't know.

00:22:30

When I think about that,

00:22:32

'cause I remember reading that

00:22:33

and thinking or being challenged to improve the quality

00:22:37

of the dots that I was collecting

00:22:41

and try to get stuff that was going to

00:22:44

give me some future value,

00:22:46

not just stuff that I enjoyed.

00:22:48

And that's a big reason why I think

00:22:51

I enjoy reading nonfiction books.

00:22:53

And that seems really weird to people.

00:22:54

I've just developed a taste for that over the years.

00:22:57

And I do actually honestly prefer to read nonfiction.

00:23:02

And there's so many nonfiction books I wanna read

00:23:04

that when someone's like,

00:23:05

hey, you should read fiction.

00:23:06

I understand those value to be gained from it.

00:23:09

I could learn how to tell better stories,

00:23:10

all that kind of stuff.

00:23:12

But just kind of like, nah, this looks better.

00:23:14

(laughs)

00:23:16

Right, so I guess what I'm trying to articulate here

00:23:20

is that picture that Chris implanted in my brain

00:23:22

of like the quality of the dots.

00:23:24

Right, that's what I view reading nonfiction books.

00:23:27

Like that's quality dots.

00:23:29

And there are quality dots to be found other places.

00:23:31

But I think the main idea is

00:23:33

consider the quality of the dots, right?

00:23:35

And then allow those things into your vessel.

00:23:38

When I get this picture of a vessel,

00:23:39

I get a picture of like a bucket

00:23:41

that you're carrying around

00:23:42

and it's only got so much capacity.

00:23:44

Doesn't matter if it's a tiny little bucket

00:23:47

or if it's a five gallon bucket

00:23:48

or it's one of those great big garbage cans.

00:23:50

Like there is a point where nothing else fits in there.

00:23:52

And that's really the thing with the visual for me

00:23:57

is putting the things in there that are worthwhile

00:24:03

because there's too much stuff out there

00:24:04

to try to collect it all.

00:24:07

Right, so information is being filtered

00:24:09

as we put it into our vessel.

00:24:11

And then when we synthesize that

00:24:16

and connect dots in new ways and express something,

00:24:19

even if it's just a remix of some things

00:24:22

that we have heard other places,

00:24:25

by sharing it, we can become

00:24:28

then source material for somebody else.

00:24:31

And that can be something that they use to fill their vessel.

00:24:36

And so it's kind of this perpetuating positive cycle

00:24:41

if you can get over the fear associated

00:24:46

with actually sharing what you're making

00:24:49

because there's lots of things

00:24:50

that will try to tell you

00:24:52

that other people are better than you are

00:24:54

and they have more expertise

00:24:56

and they know more than you do.

00:24:57

So who are you to share anything?

00:25:00

You should just let them share stuff.

00:25:02

And I feel like that's the real message

00:25:05

at the beginning of this book is,

00:25:06

no, you've got something to share

00:25:08

and you need to share it.

00:25:10

And the way to do that is to be aware

00:25:12

of how the cycle works

00:25:14

and then to lean into that and not be fighting against it.

00:25:17

- This concept of the vessel and the filter,

00:25:19

the vessel piece, maybe more so than the filter,

00:25:22

filter or something.

00:25:23

In my head, the filter is merely a selection

00:25:27

of quality inputs like what you're saying.

00:25:31

The vessel piece though, it's interesting

00:25:34

because you can start to see it

00:25:35

not just as a single vessel, but as multiple.

00:25:38

And if you go that route

00:25:41

and like using the example that he has with relationships,

00:25:46

you know, if you're in, you know,

00:25:48

if you're married, then the vessel of someone filling

00:25:53

the role of spouse is full.

00:25:56

So you can't fill that vessel.

00:25:59

So that one's already full.

00:26:02

Now, if you go into the creative space,

00:26:04

like some people have only so much capacity for writing

00:26:09

or writing endeavors.

00:26:10

Like they can only handle so many of those at a time.

00:26:13

You can maybe handle a newsletter, maybe a book

00:26:16

and maybe a blog, but those three on top of each other

00:26:19

starting to need to be a lot.

00:26:20

And then your vessel of writing is now full.

00:26:24

Taking on another writing project is not gonna happen

00:26:26

until you drop one of those others or complete one of them.

00:26:30

So you start to like add all that up in different arenas.

00:26:34

Like, okay, you've got these different vessels,

00:26:36

these different areas.

00:26:38

And you're gonna be collecting inputs

00:26:42

or taking on projects inside of those.

00:26:47

And if you want to collect more,

00:26:51

you need to empty of some in order to make room for it,

00:26:55

assuming it's full.

00:26:56

Like, this is similar to whenever people talk about,

00:27:01

they just finished a big project.

00:27:03

And then they had to take on a new hobby

00:27:05

or they had to take on some other, you know,

00:27:10

thing that they're gonna do,

00:27:12

just because like all of a sudden

00:27:14

they've got a ton of creative energy

00:27:15

that they're used to expelling every single day

00:27:17

and they got nothing.

00:27:18

Now we gotta come up with something,

00:27:21

some place to let that energy go.

00:27:24

Otherwise I'm gonna go crazy

00:27:26

'cause I got all this pent up energy

00:27:28

I don't know what to do with.

00:27:29

Like that's essential what we're talking about.

00:27:31

So it's an interesting concept

00:27:33

and I know we've kind of talked about it in different ways,

00:27:36

but again, this is just a different way

00:27:37

of seeing a similar concept

00:27:39

that we've discussed in the past.

00:27:41

- I took it a little bit different.

00:27:44

I think a different perspective of this.

00:27:48

I wasn't viewing it as like the things

00:27:51

that I would be doing in terms of creating,

00:27:53

although there's a lot of truth to that too.

00:27:55

You only have so much time

00:27:56

and you gotta pick and choose what your activities

00:27:59

are going to be.

00:28:00

But I was viewing this more as like the information

00:28:03

that comes into your, I don't know,

00:28:07

I need a better analogy for this

00:28:10

because it's really the stuff that you choose

00:28:13

to pay attention to.

00:28:14

The information is around you all the time, right?

00:28:16

Thinking back to "Leminal Thinking" by Dave Gray.

00:28:19

Where there's all those billions of bits of information

00:28:24

that are around us and we've got

00:28:26

a tiny little record needle of focused attention

00:28:29

on anything that's happening around us

00:28:31

at any given moment.

00:28:33

So we gotta pick and choose what we're going to allow in,

00:28:36

basically.

00:28:38

But then the fascinating part to me,

00:28:41

I think is like as long as you focus on not keeping it in,

00:28:46

as long as there is an outlet or an output

00:28:50

associated with the inflow of the information,

00:28:54

I kinda don't really care how it gets expressed.

00:28:57

It's just you do have to be looking for that release.

00:29:03

There has to be an output associated with it,

00:29:06

otherwise I feel it gets overwhelming

00:29:08

because my brain anyways tends to try to hang on

00:29:11

to all that stuff and organize it.

00:29:13

I'm gonna need this at some point

00:29:14

'cause I haven't done anything with it yet, right?

00:29:17

The fact that I express it, whether it's verbally,

00:29:21

as we record a podcast,

00:29:22

or I write it down somewhere, doesn't really matter,

00:29:26

I have to let it go though

00:29:29

before I can move on to the next thing.

00:29:33

And I think it probably requires

00:29:35

some consistent creation for you

00:29:40

to be able to trust the process like that maybe.

00:29:44

And I'm at that point now where I have my rhythms,

00:29:47

we're gonna talk about that actually a little bit later.

00:29:50

But if you don't have that,

00:29:52

it can be a little bit tricky maybe to figure that out.

00:29:54

I could see that.

00:29:56

- I was glancing over this blog post in a book.

00:30:00

It's about two pages long.

00:30:04

And as I was glancing through some of the main points

00:30:07

in these two pages,

00:30:08

right now I'm realizing,

00:30:11

this is actually, I don't wanna say vague,

00:30:14

but it's like artistically left,

00:30:17

not detailed, I guess, would be the term for it.

00:30:22

Because like the way I took this,

00:30:26

as I explained before you just reiterated,

00:30:28

seems to follow very much in line with what he's saying.

00:30:33

But what you're saying also does,

00:30:34

even though those aren't necessarily the same thing,

00:30:38

like it makes me wonder if there's a lot of this

00:30:41

that could be taken a handful of ways,

00:30:42

depending on where your current situation is.

00:30:46

Like people talk about that with like paintings,

00:30:50

like depending on what season of life you're in,

00:30:53

if you take enough time to sit and look at a painting,

00:30:56

you will see it completely different

00:30:58

depending on the season of life that you're in.

00:31:01

And like your previous experiences

00:31:03

will dictate your viewpoint of that painting.

00:31:06

I wonder if this is similar to that.

00:31:08

What you're going through right now may dictate

00:31:12

the way that you interpret this book.

00:31:13

It's not a bad thing.

00:31:15

It just means it's well set up for rereading in the future.

00:31:20

But that is not the way I took it, Mike.

00:31:21

But hey, go for it.

00:31:24

- All right.

00:31:28

Well, let's go to the next section,

00:31:31

'cause I feel like this actually applies

00:31:32

to the discussion that we are having right now.

00:31:35

So the next chapter that I wanna talk about is 17,

00:31:39

make it up.

00:31:41

And in that chapter, he talks about

00:31:45

how there is a difference between doubting your work

00:31:47

and doubting yourself.

00:31:49

All right.

00:31:50

So I think maybe what you are describing

00:31:53

in terms of what are the projects that I'm going to do,

00:31:56

if you're wrestling with that question of,

00:31:59

there needs to be a way to output this,

00:32:04

but I have no idea where it is.

00:32:07

I think at the beginning phases of that anyways,

00:32:10

that could be the doubting yourself part,

00:32:11

where it's, I don't know if I'm good enough.

00:32:14

And I've been in that place before,

00:32:15

where that is the thing that holds you back.

00:32:18

But the other side of that doubting your work

00:32:20

is I don't know if this is good enough.

00:32:22

That is a totally different conversation though,

00:32:25

because then it's,

00:32:28

if this thing isn't good enough,

00:32:32

then I can just chuck it.

00:32:34

And I know that since I am good enough,

00:32:36

I will make something again that will be better than this.

00:32:40

I think there's a tendency to,

00:32:42

if you think,

00:32:45

if you don't have a bunch of creative projects,

00:32:47

if you don't have a bunch of,

00:32:48

if you don't have a track record of creating,

00:32:50

you can get so attached to this one thing,

00:32:54

and this just has to be amazing.

00:32:57

And I think I have been through that with

00:33:01

the first time that I launched

00:33:05

the Faith Based Productivity video course,

00:33:09

because I had just been let go by Asian efficiency,

00:33:12

and I was trying to find my next new thing.

00:33:14

And I had this idea, this one idea, right?

00:33:18

And I'm like, this is the thing

00:33:19

that's gonna change my world.

00:33:21

And it did, but not in the way that I envisioned it would.

00:33:24

It wasn't a huge commercial success at the beginning.

00:33:29

Well, that's what I had anchored on.

00:33:32

And so when I didn't sell a ton of copies of that course,

00:33:36

I remember having the identity crisis,

00:33:38

like, well, what the heck?

00:33:39

I thought I was supposed to do this thing.

00:33:41

Nobody cares.

00:33:42

And I had that question, like,

00:33:46

I don't know if I'm good enough,

00:33:49

but I think at this point,

00:33:50

I've been doing enough other things

00:33:51

that I don't struggle with that anymore.

00:33:54

And I think that's really the only way to get to that point

00:33:57

is to do it consistently enough to silence the voice

00:34:00

of the inner critic.

00:34:02

You'll never silence the voices of the external critics,

00:34:05

but the internal one is the one that--

00:34:07

- It's a bit of a danger to--

00:34:09

- Yell to be allowed to stand in words.

00:34:10

- Start to associate the work itself as you,

00:34:15

like that whole identify with the work

00:34:18

so much so that your identity is tied up in it.

00:34:21

It's easy to say that, but it's very difficult to do that

00:34:25

in practice for many, many people.

00:34:27

Like, that's not simple.

00:34:29

It's great if you can, but even people who have done it

00:34:33

for a very long time will fall into that hole once in a while.

00:34:37

So if that's you, 'cause I know that's me,

00:34:41

it's not a simple thing.

00:34:44

So I just need to say that to begin with.

00:34:47

Also, it's a simple change in how you term something.

00:34:52

Like the way that he put it was,

00:34:54

this song isn't good enough yet,

00:34:58

versus I cannot write a good song.

00:35:01

Like, completely different worlds apart in those two phrases.

00:35:05

Depending on which one you're saying to yourself.

00:35:08

And the trouble is, at least for me,

00:35:11

is I find that I'm typically saying one of those two things

00:35:16

without realizing it's a subconscious comment to myself,

00:35:20

like, "Ugh, you're terrible at this."

00:35:22

And it's such a brief comment that it just doesn't even strike me

00:35:26

as something that needs to be corrected.

00:35:28

It's just a thing that happens.

00:35:29

Like, okay, that's not true.

00:35:33

This is where, like, I had a couple, or last two episodes ago,

00:35:38

I had the action item of doing the journaling at night thing, right?

00:35:41

I did that, and last time I was saying

00:35:45

I was gonna continue doing that, which I have been.

00:35:48

That process is also one that can come and help pull,

00:35:51

come and be extremely helpful whenever it comes to things like this,

00:35:55

because you can start to disconnect from the specific action.

00:36:00

It's like, okay, did this go well or didn't it?

00:36:03

And is it done?

00:36:05

Like, you can start to ask those questions,

00:36:07

which I've done on a couple things.

00:36:08

I've got a pretty major project I'm in the middle of at work.

00:36:12

And it's one I'm pretty excited about,

00:36:14

so it's hard for me to let it be.

00:36:17

But it's one that I know that it's never really done.

00:36:22

It involves a sound system.

00:36:24

So, like, you're never actually done

00:36:26

fixing and tweaking with sound systems.

00:36:28

It's just a perpetual forever thing.

00:36:31

So, the question is, when are you done?

00:36:33

When do you call that project done?

00:36:35

And you have to make that decision.

00:36:37

Well, if someone has an opinion of it,

00:36:40

whether it's my opinion or somebody else's,

00:36:43

it doesn't really matter.

00:36:44

Like, this is where the self-doubt versus the doubt

00:36:49

of the project itself can start to manifest itself.

00:36:54

So, yeah, I struggle with this one.

00:36:58

But I'm not sure what to do about it either.

00:37:01

It's just an awareness thing.

00:37:03

- Sure.

00:37:05

You mentioned self-doubt.

00:37:07

That's actually the previous chapter, 16.

00:37:11

And one of the things I jotted down from that chapter

00:37:14

is that you are the only one with your voice.

00:37:20

And if you really believe that,

00:37:23

that can be enough to get you over that hump

00:37:28

and actually release the thing.

00:37:31

And then the other thing that's kind of tied to this

00:37:33

is that you also have to believe

00:37:36

that there will be other ideas that will come to you,

00:37:38

even if you don't know exactly what they are yet.

00:37:41

You have to trust that you are aware enough

00:37:45

of the creative system that's happening around you

00:37:48

that you can grab some new inspiration

00:37:50

and make something else, which I get it.

00:37:53

That can be scary.

00:37:55

It's almost like you gotta let it go

00:37:57

and then the minute that you let it go,

00:37:58

that's when you see the next thing that you can leap to,

00:38:02

which maybe that's a spot to go to the next one here,

00:38:07

which is on habits.

00:38:09

And there's actually two parts of this

00:38:13

that I wanna talk about habits and seeds.

00:38:16

So habits is chapter 27.

00:38:19

And then the one after that,

00:38:20

chapter 28 is seeds.

00:38:22

But as it pertains to habits,

00:38:26

I feel like this is important

00:38:29

because this is the thing that helps the creative process work.

00:38:34

It's the showing up consistently.

00:38:37

It's, and these are ideas that we have heard

00:38:40

a million times before,

00:38:42

but again, couple of this with the seeds idea, right?

00:38:45

So if you are focused on habits and not on goals,

00:38:49

then the only person you really compete against is yourself.

00:38:52

And for both the artist and the athlete,

00:38:54

he mentions that the details matter.

00:38:56

So you have to practice the right way.

00:38:58

And he talks about how discipline and freedom

00:39:00

are not opposites.

00:39:02

We've heard that before as well.

00:39:04

Okay, so then if you have habits,

00:39:06

that's the process that actually produces the creation.

00:39:11

But what are you actually producing?

00:39:14

And he has a word for that whole process.

00:39:16

He calls it crafting, which I actually really like.

00:39:19

I've got different words for it,

00:39:21

but essentially it's the same idea.

00:39:24

You have something which is not developed,

00:39:27

and then you hone it,

00:39:28

and then you release it into the world.

00:39:31

So chapter 28 then is seeds.

00:39:33

And he talks about how you don't compare your seeds.

00:39:36

You don't judge this one being better than the other ones.

00:39:37

And I'm gonna get rid of the other ones.

00:39:39

You just gather them.

00:39:40

He says that the page 144,

00:39:43

the artist's work is to collect seeds, plant them,

00:39:45

water them with attention,

00:39:46

and see if they take root.

00:39:48

Can't judge a seed at the beginning.

00:39:50

And this reminded me of the PKM workshop

00:39:55

that I've done a couple different times now.

00:39:58

I actually have a slide in there

00:39:59

about how your personal knowledge management system,

00:40:02

and it's not an app, it's a system.

00:40:03

It's a whole bunch of things that are tied together

00:40:06

that it's a greenhouse for your ideas.

00:40:10

And you have to collect your ideas.

00:40:11

You have to put them in there,

00:40:12

you have no idea what they are at the beginning.

00:40:14

So this imagery obviously really resonated with me.

00:40:17

It was, it kind of helped me understand that analogy

00:40:21

that I had kind of stumbled upon

00:40:23

in a little bit different light.

00:40:25

All I gotta do is grab seeds,

00:40:27

put them in the greenhouse,

00:40:29

give them the right conditions,

00:40:30

and then whatever pops up, that's cool.

00:40:33

I don't have to worry about,

00:40:35

oh, I didn't get this particular thing this time.

00:40:39

And that is actually very freeing.

00:40:40

I have all sorts of thoughts on this.

00:40:43

Number one, of course we have a habits section.

00:40:45

We're not gonna skip over that particular part in the book.

00:40:48

Two, mentioning seeds, like whenever I was reading this,

00:40:50

like, yep, Mike's about to bring up PKMs,

00:40:52

like immediately, as soon as I saw, like,

00:40:55

they're all equal, it's like, yep, here we go.

00:40:58

- Well, okay, so hold on a second.

00:41:01

I gotta find myself here, 'cause I did ask,

00:41:04

are there any specific things that you wanted to pull out?

00:41:07

And the reason I asked that is because I knew that,

00:41:10

because there are 79 different chapters in here or whatever,

00:41:14

if you're gonna try to connect some of them,

00:41:19

everybody is gonna have a different path, right?

00:41:22

And that's part of the beauty of this book,

00:41:24

is you'll start with one,

00:41:25

and then you'll jump to something,

00:41:27

and you'll jump to something else.

00:41:29

So yes, you know me well, habits and seeds

00:41:32

are gonna be things that I will jump to.

00:41:34

- This is my dream, you have PKM as a habit.

00:41:36

So, (laughs)

00:41:39

the section on habits, it starts with the story,

00:41:44

we've heard this before, John Wooden with the story

00:41:46

of how to tie your shoes, how to put in your socks

00:41:48

for his basketball teams,

00:41:52

and the other side of that,

00:41:55

and something you have mentioned a couple times now

00:41:57

in this episode is like the concept of focus

00:41:59

on your own thing, and try not to get caught up

00:42:02

on what other people are saying.

00:42:05

I know that John Wooden had some of that mindset,

00:42:08

if not entirely, I'm trying to remember

00:42:10

some of the stories there, but I also know

00:42:13

that I've recently seen a, there was an interview

00:42:16

with Tom Brady, and they had asked him

00:42:19

about one of his opponents, I don't remember the specifics,

00:42:23

I just remember them asking,

00:42:26

"Did you see the tape of this guy doing this,

00:42:29

"and see the stats around it?"

00:42:31

No, I was busy training, like,

00:42:33

no, like he doesn't know,

00:42:37

like he's not 100% focused on what the other team's doing,

00:42:40

he's focused on his own thing,

00:42:42

and that concept is one that I think is super important,

00:42:45

which is why this section on habits is so,

00:42:48

I think important, and probably why we continue to rail on it,

00:42:51

every time this is even remotely mentioned,

00:42:54

we'll bring up the concept of habits,

00:42:56

because having these little components of your day,

00:43:00

of your process that are inwardly focused,

00:43:03

not focused on how does this compare to other people,

00:43:06

but like focusing on your own thing,

00:43:08

that's where all the magic and goodies come from,

00:43:12

and that's where the success can come from,

00:43:16

and there's even a whole thing on defining that

00:43:18

a little bit later, which is basically

00:43:20

to define it for yourself,

00:43:22

but doing that means that you're able to develop

00:43:27

and have, I guess, peace of mind with your own art,

00:43:33

define art for yourself,

00:43:35

that can be a whole bunch of different ways,

00:43:37

whether it's code or painting,

00:43:39

and if you're comfortable with it

00:43:41

and you're happy with it, that's the part that matters,

00:43:44

and then you can find an audience for that,

00:43:46

if that's what you wanna do,

00:43:48

which I think we would both encourage you

00:43:50

to share these things,

00:43:51

not just hold them up in some random system,

00:43:54

file system somewhere,

00:43:56

but I think there is a lot of value in this whole habits thing,

00:43:59

the seeds thing, of course, is very similar to that,

00:44:03

collecting ideas, collecting dots,

00:44:05

we've called it in the past,

00:44:06

but externalizing that can have lots of benefits,

00:44:10

as I'm sure you would attest to,

00:44:12

but these are both topics,

00:44:14

and there's probably a reason they're back to back,

00:44:16

it's like, okay, build up the habits

00:44:18

of collecting these seeds,

00:44:19

and then nurture those seeds,

00:44:21

and they'll grow into some cool things later on,

00:44:23

so yes, these are awesome,

00:44:26

probably some of my favorite parts of the book.

00:44:29

- And it's worth calling out,

00:44:31

even if you have followed along since episode one,

00:44:35

and heard us talk about these things before,

00:44:37

because consider the source here.

00:44:41

I'm not sure how familiar you are with Rick Rubin,

00:44:46

- Not.

00:44:48

- But he is a producer,

00:44:50

and he has one,

00:44:52

looks like nine different Grammy awards,

00:44:56

over the course of 25 years from 1996

00:45:00

to 2021.

00:45:03

- That explains all of the actor/musician references,

00:45:07

like he's got a lot of those.

00:45:09

- Yeah, he was one of the guys who founded

00:45:14

Def Jam recordings or something way back in the day,

00:45:18

but he's been doing this forever,

00:45:20

and the way that he's been successful

00:45:24

is exactly this.

00:45:26

His goal was not,

00:45:28

I'm gonna win a Grammy someday, right?

00:45:30

He just made stuff over and over and over again,

00:45:33

and that's actually one of the cool things about this book,

00:45:36

is he shares lots of examples,

00:45:38

and if you're not into music,

00:45:40

there are other examples that he shares,

00:45:43

other stories and things like that,

00:45:45

but he'll talk about people that he was working with,

00:45:47

and the song just wasn't working,

00:45:49

so they just completely flipped around,

00:45:51

did something different, right?

00:45:52

And that is a form of experimentation,

00:45:55

or something like that,

00:45:56

but the point being here that he,

00:46:00

practices what he preaches,

00:46:03

and what he's telling us here is,

00:46:06

as a multiple Grammy award-winning producer,

00:46:10

I can tell you, the way that I got to this point

00:46:13

was I consistently made stuff,

00:46:15

and I consistently developed seeds, right?

00:46:18

And then that has a lot more credence, I feel.

00:46:22

Not that James Clear in atomic habits

00:46:26

is a flash in the pan,

00:46:27

but almost when you compare it to Rick Rubin

00:46:29

and everything that he's done.

00:46:31

I mean, I know James Clear's story,

00:46:32

so he's been writing about habits for a really long time,

00:46:35

and atomic habits was not all of a sudden,

00:46:39

he blew up sort of success story

00:46:42

that people will paint that stuff out to be,

00:46:45

but I actually think this is great,

00:46:47

because if you do this,

00:46:50

it's almost like you don't have to worry

00:46:51

about the results,

00:46:53

but it's a longer time scale

00:46:54

than we typically think of success, too.

00:46:57

Rick Rubin's been doing this for decades.

00:47:00

We wanna give up after a week.

00:47:01

You gotta stick with it.

00:47:04

- That kind of ties in,

00:47:06

what you're saying right there,

00:47:07

it ties into, is it Cal Newport

00:47:10

that talks about slow productivity?

00:47:12

It seems like he's trying to write a book on this,

00:47:14

but it's like that concept of,

00:47:17

do the work daily towards a big thing long term.

00:47:21

Like that's really what you're talking about.

00:47:24

Cool concept definitely requires

00:47:27

some perseverance and discipline.

00:47:29

- Yep, easier said than done for sure.

00:47:31

- Yeah, by far, yes.

00:47:33

- All right, the next one that I wanna talk about

00:47:38

is number 36, the abundance mindset,

00:47:43

and the reason I wanna talk about this one

00:47:47

is you don't get this from the title,

00:47:49

but there is a dichotomy here

00:47:51

that is very important to understand.

00:47:54

And again, recognize who Rick Rubin is

00:47:56

and the success that he's had

00:47:58

changes this message a little bit.

00:48:00

So the abundance mindset he talks about

00:48:03

how an artist is free to release ideas

00:48:08

because of faith that more will arise.

00:48:10

So you put a song out there,

00:48:12

even if you could continue to tweak it

00:48:16

and make it perfect,

00:48:17

well, nothing is ever going to be perfect

00:48:19

because you have to create room for the next thing.

00:48:22

And scarcity is, well, I've got this one

00:48:26

and this is the only one that I'm gonna get.

00:48:27

I'm not sure when the next thing is gonna come.

00:48:30

So I better protect this at all costs

00:48:35

and that is counter-productive.

00:48:38

He talks about how scarcity actually leads to stagnation.

00:48:42

And we've talked about abundance versus scarcity

00:48:44

in terms of overall success.

00:48:47

Somebody else did something,

00:48:49

wrote something on a topic that I was gonna write about

00:48:51

and oh, I guess I better not do that anymore.

00:48:53

No, go ahead and make your thing

00:48:54

because just because they were successful with something

00:48:57

doesn't mean there's no room for you to be successful as well.

00:48:59

In fact, the opposite is probably true.

00:49:01

It's validation that your idea is a good one.

00:49:03

So the market is big enough to support both of you.

00:49:05

Go ahead and do it.

00:49:07

And he talks about how whatever we concentrate on,

00:49:09

we get that's a pretty powerful idea.

00:49:12

And this is like what I love about this book.

00:49:14

There's all these one liners kind of

00:49:16

that if you really sit and think about it

00:49:18

and you're like, whoa, that is profound.

00:49:21

So if I am concentrating on scarcity,

00:49:26

I will get scarcity, right?

00:49:30

Not just a scarcity mindset,

00:49:32

but I really do believe if you have a scarcity mindset,

00:49:36

it's always gonna be a struggle.

00:49:37

You're never gonna be able to really tap into the flow

00:49:40

of the energy that's around you

00:49:43

because your thinking is too small.

00:49:47

You don't have the capacity to really latch onto that.

00:49:50

But if you are able to release things

00:49:53

and you have this abundance mindset,

00:49:54

you can just jump in, go wherever the wind

00:49:57

and the waves will take you, right?

00:49:59

And that's how you get some cool places

00:50:01

because you can never see the other side

00:50:05

when you have to make that leap.

00:50:06

You just have to trust that there's enough there

00:50:10

to sustain you.

00:50:11

And when it comes to creativity,

00:50:13

I mean, if you don't get this,

00:50:16

you'll still be stuck on that first thing forever.

00:50:20

And I feel like I was at that point with the book,

00:50:23

even though I self-published that book within eight months,

00:50:27

it was done being written after about three.

00:50:30

And I just continued to tweak it

00:50:33

because I wanted it to be perfect.

00:50:35

And I'm like, oh, that's the thing.

00:50:36

That's my thing, you know?

00:50:38

My one chance, right?

00:50:41

And I still get sucked into that sometimes.

00:50:44

I think, I forget who it was.

00:50:48

It was attending a live recording.

00:50:49

Maybe it was Carol who encouraged me to let that one go

00:50:54

'cause I was talking about,

00:50:55

I gotta go back and I gotta revise that.

00:50:56

I gotta update it.

00:50:57

My thinking's evolved.

00:50:58

Like, no, just go right the next one.

00:50:59

- Yep, just move on.

00:51:01

It's okay.

00:51:02

- Yep, have the abundance mindset, right?

00:51:04

That's your thinking at a specific moment in time,

00:51:07

which he talks about that in this book too.

00:51:09

And that's a whole, that's a really great section,

00:51:11

but I didn't actually jot anything down about that.

00:51:14

There's so much, I mean, we could have

00:51:16

a 12-hour conversation about everything

00:51:18

that's in this book.

00:51:18

It's all really, really good.

00:51:20

But yeah, have an abundance mindset.

00:51:23

Don't be stingy.

00:51:25

- Yeah, that's one that,

00:51:26

we've certainly brought this one up before.

00:51:31

This is not a new, like the abundance mindset

00:51:33

is not a new one.

00:51:34

At the same time, you know,

00:51:38

trying to convey the difference between,

00:51:42

you know, trying to share ideas freely,

00:51:45

as opposed to holding onto them

00:51:48

and assuming like this is the only one

00:51:50

that's the best one you can never have, it's mine.

00:51:53

That's true, but at the same time,

00:51:56

like there is the market side of it too, right?

00:52:00

You know, patents exist for a reason

00:52:03

because you're trying to prevent people

00:52:05

from stealing things.

00:52:06

So there is that out there as well

00:52:09

that I was trying to process me having

00:52:11

a little bit of the legal mind going into that.

00:52:14

Wait a second, yeah, that's fine.

00:52:15

You can share those things,

00:52:16

but have a contract in place before you do that.

00:52:19

Like that's where my brain went.

00:52:23

Like, you know, even Rick Rubin, you know,

00:52:26

he's not gonna take a song that he's completely written

00:52:30

and just give it to somebody.

00:52:32

He's not gonna have that happen.

00:52:35

- True, but I can tell you,

00:52:36

he's also not like scanning the airwaves

00:52:40

for somebody who ripped off a melody line.

00:52:44

- Correct.

00:52:45

- I've seen that with people close to me

00:52:48

where it just consumes them.

00:52:50

It's like, oh, well, these people are stealing my stuff.

00:52:53

So, makes something better.

00:52:57

- It's a compliment.

00:52:58

Yep, that's, I think you're absolutely spot on.

00:53:03

So I think that there's,

00:53:04

but there's also the difference between like,

00:53:07

this is the thing I made versus someone took this

00:53:10

before it's completely made,

00:53:12

or like you're trying to hold on to it

00:53:13

versus freely offering it.

00:53:14

Like there's a difference between stealing

00:53:16

and then being given something.

00:53:19

So there's that out there, but regardless,

00:53:23

the concept of holding on to ideas

00:53:25

because you don't want somebody else to get the idea

00:53:27

is just complete nonsense.

00:53:28

Like that's not the way it works.

00:53:31

If you're willing to share that idea very likely,

00:53:34

the person's got another comment about it,

00:53:36

can help expand it very likely to make it better,

00:53:39

assuming you're asking the right person.

00:53:41

So it's okay.

00:53:44

Don't lock down, be open.

00:53:47

- Yeah, and the chapter before that is on completion.

00:53:52

And so I feel like the context

00:53:56

or the bias towards this is just in terms of

00:54:00

abundance versus scarcity in terms of the ideas.

00:54:05

But I also think he would agree with

00:54:10

like the general concept that we're talking about here.

00:54:14

You know, I mentioned he's won a bunch of different Grammys.

00:54:17

There are, there's only a certain amount of Grammys.

00:54:21

Right?

00:54:22

So if you wanted to anchor something as evidence

00:54:25

for a scarcity mindset, you know,

00:54:27

that would be something like that would be it.

00:54:29

But I have a feeling just based on everything

00:54:31

that we've read in this book, you would even say,

00:54:33

so I've won a Grammy, that doesn't prevent somebody else

00:54:35

from winning it.

00:54:37

You have to do something that's worth winning that award.

00:54:43

And if you don't get that award,

00:54:44

that doesn't mean that the thing that you made is not valuable.

00:54:49

The real value is in the creative process

00:54:53

and you being willing to share it.

00:54:56

And in that completion chapter, he talks about

00:55:00

how each work of art is in the reflection of us.

00:55:01

It's only reflection of who we are in this moment.

00:55:04

And so this is where I feel like if you go into this

00:55:07

with a growth mindset, you're cooking with gas.

00:55:10

It's just a matter of time.

00:55:13

I make something, it's bad, who cares?

00:55:15

I'm gonna learn a lesson from it

00:55:17

and I'm gonna do it better next time.

00:55:19

And I'm gonna do that enough.

00:55:21

The score is gonna take care of itself.

00:55:23

Right?

00:55:24

There is always going to be a market

00:55:25

for things that are of high quality.

00:55:28

And the thing I have to overcome

00:55:30

is the constantly tweaking it and getting it just right.

00:55:33

Because why?

00:55:35

Because I wanna meet somebody else's standard?

00:55:39

No, he talks about how the work is done

00:55:41

when you think it is.

00:55:43

When you believe the work before you is the single piece

00:55:46

that will forever define you, it's difficult to let it go.

00:55:49

He says, "I'll page 195."

00:55:51

And so that's the trap for me, that perfectionism.

00:55:56

If I get stuck there, then I don't make anything new.

00:55:59

- You should keep making new things.

00:56:02

- How about a podcast every two weeks?

00:56:05

- Hey, there we go.

00:56:06

You can't get too caught up on each one of them

00:56:08

'cause you got another one coming.

00:56:09

- It's true.

00:56:11

And I have never gone back and listened

00:56:13

to the early episodes, but I'm sure if I did,

00:56:16

I would see that we are a lot better at it now

00:56:19

than we were.

00:56:20

- I have the amount of interest I have

00:56:24

in going back to those early episodes

00:56:26

and listening to them is definitely in the negatives.

00:56:29

- Yep.

00:56:30

It's truly something I'm avoiding.

00:56:33

Do not want to do.

00:56:35

- Yeah, I don't think there'll be a whole lot of value

00:56:36

in that, to be honest, but that's okay.

00:56:39

All right, the next one, we're gonna jump ahead a bit here.

00:56:44

But again, there's lots of great stuff in here.

00:56:46

So 55, the name of this chapter is 24/7,

00:56:52

or staying in it.

00:56:53

Creativity is something that you are.

00:56:57

And it talks about how the artist's job

00:57:00

is two kinds of work.

00:57:01

The work of doing and the work of being.

00:57:05

I like this analogy.

00:57:08

And I think this compliments probably

00:57:12

what you and I do fairly well.

00:57:14

When you are a full-time creator,

00:57:17

I feel like there is pressure to constantly be creating,

00:57:20

but you need time to switch modes

00:57:22

and just noodle on things.

00:57:25

So that's what I would call the work of being.

00:57:29

And because the day job is so different,

00:57:33

it actually, I feel kind of facilitates this.

00:57:37

I was kind of curious where you see the lines here

00:57:40

between the work of doing

00:57:42

and the work of being for yourself.

00:57:44

- Yeah, that's a blurry line,

00:57:47

but at the same time, a very clean line

00:57:50

in that it floats from thing to thing.

00:57:54

So there's the creative side and the creative endeavors,

00:57:57

the content creation side of it,

00:57:59

where we're creating this podcast, right?

00:58:01

And we're doing every two weeks, I'm always reading

00:58:04

and then processing my thoughts on it,

00:58:05

knowing that we're gonna come discuss it.

00:58:07

So for example, I've been reading this book,

00:58:10

this is absorbed all of my reading time because it's long.

00:58:14

And then the next day, I'm regularly processing,

00:58:18

or that day if I've read it in the morning,

00:58:20

I'm processing the things that I read

00:58:22

for this conversation.

00:58:25

And in one particular case,

00:58:27

I've got an audio rack sitting right here behind me

00:58:29

that I'm in the middle of building

00:58:31

and it required a fair amount of soldering.

00:58:34

So I've been soldering XLR cables, if you wanna know.

00:58:37

And that takes a lot of time.

00:58:39

It's just a process I need to go through.

00:58:42

Nothing specifically difficult about it

00:58:45

in the scheme of what I do.

00:58:47

So it was a pretty mundane thing.

00:58:51

So I was doing something, like in that case,

00:58:54

I would be sitting in the realm of being,

00:58:57

it was like my day job stuff,

00:59:00

but I've soldered XLR cables enough

00:59:03

to not really have to think about it.

00:59:05

It's like one of those things I can zone out on,

00:59:07

which then means like I'm processing what I read that day.

00:59:12

So then that's like the whole being aspect, right?

00:59:15

I'm not actually creating anything.

00:59:17

I don't have the habit of creating it

00:59:19

in action at that time.

00:59:21

This is similar, like people talk about like,

00:59:22

I do this whenever I'm mowing the lawn,

00:59:24

like I could hire that out,

00:59:25

but I want that time spent just not thinking about anything

00:59:32

in particular, just letting my mind run.

00:59:34

'Cause that's where a lot of great ideas come.

00:59:37

I just did this yesterday on the snow plow,

00:59:40

like just back and forth, back and forth, back and forth,

00:59:43

'cause snowmageddon.

00:59:45

And that is a time that seems to be wasted

00:59:50

and a lot of people would say I should outsource that,

00:59:52

but I'm not gonna do that

00:59:53

because that's a very valuable being state for me,

00:59:57

versus the work of doing,

01:00:00

like we're doing right now,

01:00:02

the work of creating the podcast.

01:00:04

Like this is the culmination of, for me,

01:00:07

many hours of time spent reading the text

01:00:12

and then processing my thoughts about it,

01:00:15

doing other stuff that I do throughout the day.

01:00:18

Now thankfully, like my job has a lot of places

01:00:21

where it's stuff I do all the time.

01:00:23

I love doing it, but I don't have to think actively about it.

01:00:27

It's not like I'm running the soundboard

01:00:29

in a way that requires me to actively focus on it.

01:00:32

It's like soldering, pulling cable, connecting things.

01:00:36

Like I don't have to think when I do those things.

01:00:38

I still like doing it, but I don't have to think,

01:00:40

which means that my brain goes to the other places

01:00:42

that being state.

01:00:43

So I like those two.

01:00:45

I like that he defined them in those ways.

01:00:48

I can't say that it's like revolutionary.

01:00:50

This is a brand new idea.

01:00:51

Like this is definitely something I've had delineated

01:00:54

in my mind for quite some time,

01:00:56

but at the same time, it's like,

01:00:58

it's kind of cool to see it termed that way.

01:01:00

So definitely a section that's worth your reading.

01:01:03

- Well, the term being I think is the one

01:01:07

that is a little uncomfortable for people

01:01:11

because when you are being with the idea,

01:01:16

you're in the presence of it.

01:01:18

It has your attention even maybe,

01:01:21

but you're not actively moving it forward.

01:01:25

You're not making something with it.

01:01:28

And that coupled with the idea mentioned earlier,

01:01:31

we've got a limited amount of attention

01:01:33

to devote to things.

01:01:35

I feel like if you're just being with an idea

01:01:37

and you're just like holding it lightly

01:01:39

and looking at it, there's like the,

01:01:42

there can be that anxiety or that pressure to,

01:01:45

nothing's happening here.

01:01:46

Let's go find something else.

01:01:48

And what he's encouraging us to do, I feel,

01:01:54

is fight against that and just be in the moment

01:01:58

with the thing.

01:02:00

And that's kind of contradictory, I think,

01:02:03

to some of the other stuff that I was talking about.

01:02:06

Or it can appear that way.

01:02:07

I really don't think it is.

01:02:09

If I'm working on something,

01:02:10

I want to be working on that thing.

01:02:12

If I'm reading a book, I want to be reading one book.

01:02:15

I know that there are people who say

01:02:16

you should read multiple books at a time.

01:02:18

And I've even tried that as an action item.

01:02:19

It hasn't worked for me.

01:02:21

I'm okay with working on one thing at a time.

01:02:23

I'm okay when I feel like I'm at an impasse,

01:02:26

putting that thing on the side

01:02:27

and not actually shipping anything with that.

01:02:29

And then moving on to the next thing.

01:02:32

But I'm also okay just letting whatever it is

01:02:35

that's in front of me be the thing that's in front of me

01:02:38

for a period of time as well.

01:02:41

And that is not easy to do,

01:02:43

especially if you're looking for some sort of movement.

01:02:48

The whole idea of like the seeds, right?

01:02:52

You can't really tell that it's growing

01:02:54

until it pokes through the ground.

01:02:56

But there's a lot going on underneath the surface.

01:03:00

And I feel like that's kind of hard to do.

01:03:03

It's a skill that you can develop.

01:03:06

It's just kind of an intuition of like,

01:03:07

no, there's something here.

01:03:08

And I just got to incubate it a bit yet

01:03:12

as opposed to like this one's done

01:03:14

and it's time to chuck it and move on.

01:03:17

- Yeah.

01:03:17

This is something,

01:03:19

it can work on a very short timeframe too.

01:03:22

At least this is the way I see it.

01:03:24

Like there's regularly problems with computers

01:03:27

and stuff that I need to solve and my day job.

01:03:30

And if I don't know the answer right away,

01:03:33

it's very common for me to just stand,

01:03:35

not say anything and just kind of look at it.

01:03:37

Like I'm not doing anything.

01:03:39

I'm just staring at it.

01:03:42

And that frustrates some people.

01:03:45

Like shouldn't you be doing something?

01:03:48

Like, and sometimes it can be frustrating to me too.

01:03:51

Like I feel like I should be doing something

01:03:52

and I don't know what it is.

01:03:54

If I don't know what it is,

01:03:55

the best thing I can do is not do anything.

01:03:57

Because the moment I start doing something,

01:04:00

I'm likely gonna be making it worse.

01:04:03

And that is the opposite of what I wanna be doing.

01:04:06

So sitting and just kind of processing it.

01:04:08

And then if it's a tough one that I can't get a solution to,

01:04:11

I'm better off going and doing something else

01:04:13

and then coming back to it.

01:04:15

And I do that on occasion too.

01:04:16

I was like, I don't know the answer to this.

01:04:18

Give me a little bit and I'll be back.

01:04:21

And I'll either come up with a solution

01:04:23

that we can do temporarily or a workaround.

01:04:26

But I need a little bit of space here.

01:04:27

And generally people are okay with that.

01:04:29

Like by the end of the day, I'll be back over here.

01:04:32

Like I'm gonna give you a timeframe

01:04:33

'cause then otherwise people are like,

01:04:35

well, I'm never gonna see him again.

01:04:37

Like that's not the case.

01:04:39

I just don't have the solution right now

01:04:40

and I need some time to come up with that.

01:04:43

So even on a short timeframe, I find that this is

01:04:46

a thing that can be helpful.

01:04:48

- Yep.

01:04:49

The mode switching I think really is the be there for me.

01:04:53

All right, the next one that I wanna talk about

01:04:58

is 61 freedom.

01:05:01

And I have in the notes here freedom and goals

01:05:06

because I feel like these are connected

01:05:11

in how he talks about this chapter,

01:05:15

but the chapter itself is just called freedom.

01:05:18

He talks about how art is far more powerful

01:05:22

than our plans for it.

01:05:23

And on page 328, he says, in the creative process,

01:05:27

it's often more difficult to accomplish a goal

01:05:30

by aiming at it.

01:05:31

Do you agree or disagree with that statement?

01:05:35

- I feel like every time I've tried to create art

01:05:38

in any form, whether it's writing,

01:05:40

even technical things like this audio rack

01:05:44

that I've been referring to.

01:05:46

Like I have a goal and I know what the outcome

01:05:49

of that needs to be.

01:05:51

And yet the way that I get there,

01:05:54

or even like the final product,

01:05:56

is already different than what I intended to hit.

01:05:59

And this is a very systematic mathematical process

01:06:04

that you can go through to come up with

01:06:06

how this thing needs to be built.

01:06:08

And even that ended up being a creative process to change.

01:06:12

So I think he spot on here.

01:06:14

Like I don't think it's ever exactly what you intend to hit

01:06:17

when you are done.

01:06:18

There's always like something that's a little bit different

01:06:20

than what you intended.

01:06:22

- Yeah, and I bring this up because of goals.

01:06:26

But I feel like this helps add some context

01:06:31

to something I was having trouble articulating

01:06:34

regarding my issue with goals.

01:06:35

It's not the goals themselves, I think, that are bad.

01:06:40

So Bodhi Quirk will be happy to hear, I guess,

01:06:43

that I'm being a little bit nicer to goals.

01:06:45

But the way that we traditionally set them

01:06:48

as I'm going to achieve this outcome by this date,

01:06:51

the whole smart format, right?

01:06:53

I feel like that's very different

01:06:55

than what you just described, which is,

01:06:58

I have a general idea of what this thing should look like

01:07:00

when it's functioning at the end.

01:07:02

- Yes.

01:07:03

- Right?

01:07:04

And so I feel like that's fine to have some sort of picture

01:07:07

of what the end product is going to be.

01:07:11

But the more specific that you get in shaping that goal,

01:07:16

I feel like if it is something that is creative

01:07:19

and I am more and more understanding

01:07:22

that creativity and productivity are like two different sides

01:07:25

of the same coin.

01:07:27

So just like everybody is creative,

01:07:30

everyone should care about their productivity.

01:07:32

The productivity is how you are actually doing the work,

01:07:36

but the creativity is how that work is being expressed.

01:07:39

It's the thing that you're making

01:07:41

as opposed to the stuff that you are doing.

01:07:43

So I think there's a correlation there.

01:07:46

And so this is something

01:07:47

that everybody should consider, I think.

01:07:49

And when you don't get so anchored

01:07:51

to the specifics of a traditional goal,

01:07:56

you do experience what he has titled this chapter,

01:08:00

which is freedom.

01:08:01

So it's fine to have those markers

01:08:06

of like, this is what I want to have happen.

01:08:08

But I guess this is a good argument

01:08:12

for holding those things lightly

01:08:14

and being willing to modify

01:08:17

or even completely scrap your plans.

01:08:20

- So this, it's interesting you brought this up.

01:08:24

So one of the things I've been thinking about is like,

01:08:28

okay, what are the technical reasons that goals are bad?

01:08:31

Like, you know what I mean?

01:08:33

Like, well, sure we say that.

01:08:35

And it's something that I would definitely agree with that

01:08:38

if you set it in that way, just a blanket statement,

01:08:41

like very vague.

01:08:44

But why?

01:08:45

Why would I say that?

01:08:47

And I don't have clean answers on that.

01:08:50

Like, so don't expect some magical thing I'm about to tell you.

01:08:53

That doesn't exist.

01:08:54

But the derivative question that I've had as a result of that

01:08:58

is what's the alternative to goals?

01:09:02

And something I've been processing of like,

01:09:03

okay, again, take this audio rack.

01:09:06

It's not that I'm trying to accomplish a goal.

01:09:10

It's that there's a problem I'm trying to solve.

01:09:13

And if I'm working towards solving that problem,

01:09:18

inherently there's typically, inherently there is

01:09:22

an obvious point in time when that problem has been solved.

01:09:27

Now, there might be corresponding or cascading problems

01:09:31

that arise as a result of solving that first one.

01:09:34

'Cause I've had that with our main sound system recently.

01:09:37

It was like, I fixed a certain thing with the amps,

01:09:39

which then led to this whole room tuning thing I had to do.

01:09:43

I fixed one problem and it created 12 more.

01:09:46

So it's just the way that that stuff goes sometimes.

01:09:48

That's a problem that needs solved.

01:09:50

Would some people call that a goal?

01:09:52

Probably.

01:09:53

So it starts to get a little bit vague.

01:09:56

Anyway, the goal thing, you got me thinking on that.

01:09:58

It's like, I wonder if it's more about, for me anyway,

01:10:01

this is again, not necessarily a hot take,

01:10:03

but it's a thing that's still being processed.

01:10:07

So it's not fully cooked.

01:10:09

Just be aware of that.

01:10:10

But this concept of problem solving versus setting goals.

01:10:14

Let me take a stab at it.

01:10:16

Okay, give me.

01:10:17

I think when you set a goal,

01:10:19

what you are saying is this is the thing

01:10:22

I'm going to focus on, right?

01:10:24

So you are converging your focus.

01:10:28

You are eliminating options as you move towards a focal point.

01:10:33

But on the other side of that,

01:10:36

the freedom that he's talking about,

01:10:38

and there are other chapters he talks about here

01:10:40

where like when you are stuck in the middle of a project,

01:10:43

you should just completely flip it around

01:10:45

and do something totally crazy and see what happens with that.

01:10:48

So that, I feel like the creativity side of this

01:10:52

is divergence where it's getting wider

01:10:55

and you are getting more options.

01:10:58

And if I were to summarize my thought on

01:11:02

how do these two things relate right now?

01:11:07

It is that we are constantly switching

01:11:09

between converging and diverging.

01:11:13

And so we're constantly switching back and forth

01:11:15

from, for lack of a better term, productivity and creativity.

01:11:20

I know that you can be productive as a creative

01:11:22

and I would argue that more people need to be creative

01:11:24

when they are being productive.

01:11:27

But I feel like there's just these two different mindsets

01:11:30

that we have to switch back and forth from.

01:11:32

And the better we get at changing our focus

01:11:35

whenever it is appropriate,

01:11:38

the better we become at overcoming the obstacles

01:11:41

that are the true obstacles that are in front of us.

01:11:45

And then you couple that with the idea of self-determination

01:11:48

and we have the ability to plot our own path.

01:11:50

And it makes a lot of sense to me.

01:11:53

(laughs)

01:11:55

But yeah, still cooking on it a little bit,

01:11:59

but I find that helpful anyways of like,

01:12:01

now is the time to look wider as opposed to now is the time

01:12:04

to look narrower.

01:12:07

Sure.

01:12:07

Thoughts or thoughts?

01:12:10

There's another seed to put in the pot.

01:12:12

Exactly. (laughs)

01:12:15

All right, the next one is just a couple of chapters ahead,

01:12:20

63, what works for you?

01:12:24

And I feel like we have to touch on this one

01:12:28

given the nature of bookworm. (laughs)

01:12:32

Because there is so much advice that we process ourselves

01:12:36

and then we talk about and people listen to,

01:12:39

we would be derelict in our duties

01:12:44

if we did not share the warning here

01:12:46

that as you receive advice,

01:12:48

you need to receive it as information, not a prescription.

01:12:52

And part of me is just like,

01:12:54

I've been kind of on this kick lately

01:12:56

that productivity books, they tend to be written as,

01:12:59

here's the system and now all you have to do is work the system

01:13:03

and you're guaranteed to get the results.

01:13:05

And I've been telling people in the different talks

01:13:08

and things that I've been doing recently,

01:13:09

like that's garbage. (laughs)

01:13:11

You have to evaluate for yourself what is actually there,

01:13:16

going all the way back again to how to read a book

01:13:18

by Mortimer Adler.

01:13:19

There's so much good stuff in that book.

01:13:21

And he talks about how when you read a book,

01:13:23

it's like playing catch and the author is throwing the ball

01:13:27

to you and you have to receive it.

01:13:29

And if they are a skilled writer, skilled communicator,

01:13:32

then they have more control and then you receive the message

01:13:35

and then you wait for yourself and you decide

01:13:37

whether you agree or disagree with it

01:13:38

and you ask questions in return, right?

01:13:42

That's a kind of weird picture for people

01:13:44

who'd never heard that before,

01:13:45

of actually having like a conversation with an author,

01:13:48

but that you really have the right to do that.

01:13:50

And you have to weigh all these things

01:13:51

and decide if it is right for you.

01:13:54

It doesn't matter how many Grammys they've won.

01:13:56

It doesn't matter how many books they have had

01:13:58

on the New York Times bestsellers list, right?

01:14:02

It may not be the right thing for you,

01:14:05

especially in this moment.

01:14:07

So this whole chapter is just about how your path is unique.

01:14:11

There's no single route to a great art

01:14:13

and there's no wrong way to make art.

01:14:16

You have to figure it out for yourself.

01:14:17

And I think what we're trying to do is share

01:14:21

the things that we noticed and the results

01:14:23

from our own experiments.

01:14:24

There's a chapter in here on experimentation as well.

01:14:28

And you can draw your own conclusions from that.

01:14:31

Feel free to try it.

01:14:32

You know, I had a tennis coach in college

01:14:35

who wasn't, he would mix up his sayings all the time.

01:14:40

And there was one time before a big match

01:14:44

in the tournament at the end of the year.

01:14:45

He's like, you know if the shoe fits,

01:14:47

try it on and think about it.

01:14:49

Right, so that's something we say all the time.

01:14:52

And that really applies here.

01:14:55

Try it on and think about it.

01:14:56

Decide for yourself though, if you decide

01:15:00

this isn't the right thing,

01:15:01

then feel free to take it off again.

01:15:02

- I have been known to mix up sayings.

01:15:06

And it's usually when I'm doing quick critiques

01:15:10

of my children is when this slips up.

01:15:13

I don't intend to do this, but simple things

01:15:15

like don't talk with food in your mouth, right?

01:15:19

That concept or the one that I've been accidentally saying

01:15:23

lately when they're talking with food in their mouths

01:15:26

is don't talk with your mouth open.

01:15:28

Like wait, wait, no, that doesn't add up.

01:15:33

So like those phrases will sometimes come out.

01:15:37

You know what I meant?

01:15:41

And of course then they're dying laughing

01:15:42

and spitting food everywhere.

01:15:44

So that complete opposite of what I wanted.

01:15:46

Being a dad.

01:15:50

- All right, the last one here,

01:15:54

if you're ready to move on to this one is chapter 71,

01:15:59

which is actually called the art habit.

01:16:03

So another chapter on habits here,

01:16:05

but the subtitle is Sanga.

01:16:08

And that's the one that I think is a cool idea

01:16:11

that I wanted to discuss.

01:16:13

So in this chapter, there's a couple of things

01:16:17

which are not necessarily related

01:16:19

that really resonated with me.

01:16:21

Page 3.59, he says, "If you look for the work

01:16:23

"to support you, you may be asking too much of it.

01:16:25

"That reminded me of that Derek Sivers essay

01:16:27

"about how to make a lot of money

01:16:29

"and do what you love, have a well-paying job

01:16:32

"and make your art."

01:16:33

That's kind of what he's talking about here.

01:16:35

- Right, do two things, not one.

01:16:36

- Exactly.

01:16:37

So success is harder to come by when your life depends on it.

01:16:41

He talks about how it's okay to have a job

01:16:43

that supports your art habit.

01:16:47

However, the word Sanga, this is kind of like a mastermind.

01:16:52

It's other people who have a creative mindset,

01:16:59

but they don't have to be expressing their creativity

01:17:02

the same way you do.

01:17:04

And I think this is, so that's typically

01:17:07

what I would describe as a mastermind group.

01:17:10

I've got a blog post, which I wrote quite a while ago

01:17:13

at this point on how to start your own mastermind group,

01:17:16

which I will put a link to in the show notes.

01:17:19

I think that's still relevant.

01:17:21

And really the takeaway I think at this point

01:17:23

is just to realize the value in this

01:17:27

and look for these kinds of people in your life.

01:17:31

Because the big thing he talks about here

01:17:33

is that creativity is contagious.

01:17:35

And I 100% believe that if you try to create in a vacuum,

01:17:39

it can be really, really difficult.

01:17:41

But when you are around other people

01:17:42

who are doing the same thing, it becomes a lot easier.

01:17:45

There's like this positive peer pressure.

01:17:47

There's motivation that goes along with that.

01:17:49

That's why things like Part-Time YouTuber Academy

01:17:51

and Ship30 for 30 are successful.

01:17:53

Because there's a whole bunch of people

01:17:54

doing the same thing at the same time.

01:17:57

- And yet they're different.

01:17:58

Like that's part of the point, right?

01:18:01

This is, so personally, like this is something that I've,

01:18:05

and I only just connected this when you started explaining it.

01:18:07

But I do so much stuff in the sound world and audio systems.

01:18:12

That's a big part of my day job, it seems like.

01:18:17

And yet that means that I'm not really

01:18:20

around other sound engineers very often.

01:18:23

I mean from time to time.

01:18:25

But the people that I am around a lot are musicians.

01:18:29

And we're all working towards kind of the same thing.

01:18:31

But it definitely is a creative process

01:18:35

for creating that song, because I'm definitely

01:18:38

a big part of that, because I'm putting like amplifying

01:18:41

or de-amplifying or putting effects into the play.

01:18:45

Like I'm adding a lot of that to it

01:18:47

in order to create the sound that the band is after.

01:18:49

So we're definitely doing this together.

01:18:51

So there ends up being a lot of creative process

01:18:55

collectively in that arena.

01:18:59

But at the same time, that doesn't really translate

01:19:02

into podcasting or writing.

01:19:06

Like it doesn't really translate into that realm.

01:19:09

I think that's where maybe what you're talking about

01:19:10

with the Part 10 YouTuber Academy.

01:19:12

Like if you're doing something around YouTube,

01:19:15

like that is definitely a place you should go.

01:19:17

At least getting started, right?

01:19:19

So that's kind of similar, but I think it is helpful

01:19:24

to find these groups.

01:19:26

You know, it can be super encouraging.

01:19:27

Honestly, it can be a great source of accountability.

01:19:30

If you're somebody like me that needs that type of thing,

01:19:32

that can be huge.

01:19:33

So please do this.

01:19:35

It's good.

01:19:36

It's good.

01:19:36

It won't hurt you.

01:19:38

- All right.

01:19:39

Should we do action items?

01:19:41

- Sure.

01:19:43

- All right.

01:19:43

I don't have any.

01:19:46

- I'm the same.

01:19:49

- Okay.

01:19:53

- All right, moving on.

01:19:54

- Well, let's talk about why that is, I think.

01:19:57

Because this book is interesting.

01:20:00

We'll get into style and rating in a minute.

01:20:04

But I think the one action item

01:20:07

that could be gleaned from this,

01:20:10

I guess technically there's lots of little things

01:20:11

that you could apply.

01:20:13

But I think the obvious one is to reconsider

01:20:18

your creative rhythms, your creative habits.

01:20:22

And I intend to do that,

01:20:23

but not with the intention of changing anything.

01:20:27

What this book has done is it has helped me

01:20:29

to look at the way that I create.

01:20:33

And in a lot of ways, it's reinforced

01:20:35

some of the beliefs that I have held

01:20:38

and created more motivation to do things

01:20:40

that I have been doing.

01:20:42

It has spurred some ideas for other things

01:20:44

that I want to do with things

01:20:46

like the faith-based productivity community.

01:20:49

But there was nothing in this that I've walked away like,

01:20:51

oh, that is something specific

01:20:53

that I am going to implement.

01:20:56

And I feel like that is okay.

01:20:57

That is not a judgment on this book

01:21:00

in any way, shape, or form.

01:21:01

- I think that's absolutely valid

01:21:04

'cause thinking about the fact that I have none,

01:21:07

and then thinking about the creative endeavors

01:21:10

that I'm involved in,

01:21:13

which seemed to be fairly extensive

01:21:14

the more I process that.

01:21:16

It helps me realize that either one,

01:21:22

I have a lot of good processes in place

01:21:23

and this is just a reaffirming book.

01:21:28

Or this is more just motivational.

01:21:31

It's not necessarily,

01:21:33

here's the tactics you need to employ.

01:21:35

Rather, this is a, hey, you know what to do, go to work.

01:21:41

- Yeah.

01:21:42

- You know what I mean?

01:21:43

This isn't how to calm your mind.

01:21:46

We had some very practical things that came out of that.

01:21:49

This one is more like, hey,

01:21:53

here's how this stuff works.

01:21:54

I'm not telling you what you should or shouldn't do

01:21:57

because he's even got a chapter in there that says,

01:21:59

hey, just do what works for you.

01:22:00

Don't listen to me.

01:22:02

Like he has that there.

01:22:04

So that's definitely a thing that is at play.

01:22:07

So it's something that I know,

01:22:10

it definitely can be something that can spur you

01:22:13

to get to work.

01:22:13

Like that's, I think what I'm getting at.

01:22:15

- Yeah, the action item that comes from this,

01:22:17

from the very beginning is make art.

01:22:20

And if you are making art,

01:22:22

this is, there's a lot of encouragement here,

01:22:24

but it's not written in a way that there's like

01:22:27

lots of different tweaks that you're gonna make

01:22:29

to your process.

01:22:30

If you're not making art,

01:22:32

I would think that that would be a very strong action item.

01:22:35

And art is whatever it is that is in your heart to create.

01:22:40

All right, so that being said,

01:22:43

let's go on to styling rating.

01:22:46

And this is my book.

01:22:49

So I will go first.

01:22:51

I love this book.

01:22:53

I mentioned in terms of the bookworm format,

01:22:56

felt very much like a choose your own adventure style book.

01:23:01

And I feel a little bit selfish

01:23:02

'cause all the stuff on the outline was mine.

01:23:05

But.

01:23:07

- Which is okay, I didn't give you anything.

01:23:09

- That's true, I did ask, I did ask.

01:23:11

- That you did, that you did.

01:23:13

- Yeah, I think everyone should pick this one up.

01:23:18

I think this is probably the perfect book

01:23:23

for what he was trying to do, honestly.

01:23:26

The way it's laid out is just amazing.

01:23:29

I feel like even the way he starts it with chapter one,

01:23:31

everyone is a creator, like it's very polarizing.

01:23:33

You either agree with that or you don't agree with that.

01:23:35

And as we talked about by the time you get to chapter 10,

01:23:38

if you don't agree with it, you're out.

01:23:40

You've decided, I don't like this guy.

01:23:43

However, for the people that this can really help,

01:23:45

the people who this resonates with,

01:23:47

I mean, this is,

01:23:50

I wish I would have had this at the beginning

01:23:52

of my creative journey.

01:23:53

I wish someone would have handed me this book

01:23:56

when I was struggling with the idea of like,

01:23:58

oh, I think I should write something,

01:23:59

but I don't know what it should be.

01:24:01

'Cause a lot of the things that he's talked about,

01:24:03

I've struggled with this stuff.

01:24:05

I feel like for anybody who thinks

01:24:09

that they have the potential to be creative,

01:24:12

this book can be very, very, very helpful.

01:24:16

I also think that no two people are going to read this

01:24:19

and walk away with the same pieces

01:24:23

that really resonated with them, that really spoke to them.

01:24:27

There's so much in here.

01:24:29

There are so many one-liners is how I called them,

01:24:32

but just it's really well written.

01:24:35

The way things are written, I mean,

01:24:38

this book could have been, I know it's 400 pages,

01:24:41

but we talked about how it's not really that long

01:24:42

because there's a lot of white space.

01:24:45

This easily could have been two to three times this length.

01:24:50

If this was written like most of the business

01:24:53

and productivity books that we picked up,

01:24:55

this would be over a thousand pages.

01:24:57

It feels very dense, very concise.

01:25:01

I picked this up and I started reading.

01:25:02

It took me forever to get through this.

01:25:05

Just because I walked out of every single chapter

01:25:07

being like, I gotta chew on that for a while.

01:25:10

(laughs)

01:25:12

I read the first five chapters.

01:25:14

That was at lunch like two and a half weeks ago.

01:25:18

And I got done, I'm still sitting there eating lunch.

01:25:22

I'm like, I gotta close this.

01:25:24

I gotta think about what I just read.

01:25:26

This is profound.

01:25:28

This is potentially life-changing.

01:25:30

So I think the audience maybe

01:25:34

is going to be a little bit narrower

01:25:38

than some of the stuff that we read,

01:25:40

but I would argue that it shouldn't be

01:25:43

because going all the way back chapter one,

01:25:45

I do believe everyone is creative.

01:25:47

I think for anybody who is interested

01:25:50

in the topic of creativity,

01:25:52

there are two books.

01:25:54

There is this one and the laws of creativity.

01:25:57

That's it.

01:25:57

They blow everything else

01:25:58

that I have ever read on this topic out of the water.

01:26:02

And this is something that I will definitely go back

01:26:04

and reread at different points.

01:26:07

I would have no trouble recommending this

01:26:09

to anybody who listens to Bookworm,

01:26:14

anyone who has a desire to make anything.

01:26:17

And I think this is an easy five stars.

01:26:21

- So Mike gives it five stars.

01:26:25

I will not be.

01:26:27

The thing that, so I think your spot on this book is amazing

01:26:32

as far as like the creative process goes

01:26:35

'cause I don't think,

01:26:37

I don't think we've got a book.

01:26:39

The Joey Kefone book is the one

01:26:42

that's probably close to the laws of creativity.

01:26:45

But this one covers like every component of creativity.

01:26:50

There's not really a piece of the process

01:26:52

that gets missed here.

01:26:53

There's a little bit of weirdness

01:26:56

when he gets into like some spiritual sides of things

01:27:00

at times that's very small portions.

01:27:04

The part that is gonna keep me off of the Five-O here

01:27:09

is just that to me this was a bit of a slog to get through.

01:27:15

- Interesting.

01:27:16

- And that might be a harsh way to say it.

01:27:18

It was a difficult read for me

01:27:21

and it wasn't because of style.

01:27:25

He has a really good writing style.

01:27:30

He's a very dense writer like you were saying.

01:27:33

Like I couldn't read this at lunch

01:27:34

and I couldn't read it at night.

01:27:35

I had to read it in the morning.

01:27:37

That was the only time I read this.

01:27:39

And it was because like I would get through two or three,

01:27:42

maybe four of these chapters.

01:27:45

And then it wasn't like I had to stop and say,

01:27:49

"Okay, I got a chew on this."

01:27:50

It was more like,

01:27:51

"Okay, I just like that whole vessel thing."

01:27:53

Like it was full, like I couldn't do anymore.

01:27:56

It was just too dense and I couldn't take

01:27:59

throwing more at myself.

01:28:02

But I found it kind of difficult to get through primarily

01:28:06

because there's just no story here.

01:28:08

Like, we've talked about that before

01:28:12

where if you're going to get a point across really well,

01:28:17

bringing story into it is a very big component of that.

01:28:21

I don't know that he intended it that way,

01:28:24

but there's just not much for the,

01:28:28

show me the climax of a plot line.

01:28:31

Like that concept just doesn't exist here.

01:28:34

I don't know that that's a requirement in a book,

01:28:38

but having seen this one without that

01:28:42

and without much for that.

01:28:45

Now there are some, but they're like less than a paragraph,

01:28:48

like a couple of three sentences here and there,

01:28:51

but not very often.

01:28:53

Like I could probably count it on one hand,

01:28:54

maybe two, six, seven stories in the whole thing,

01:28:57

out of 400 pages, maybe there's more than that.

01:29:00

I'm just underestimating it.

01:29:02

But it just didn't feel like,

01:29:04

but because of that, it meant that I had to actively work

01:29:07

at trying to stay focused on what I was reading.

01:29:10

That might be the ADD thing going on there.

01:29:12

Maybe that's what's at play.

01:29:15

It just felt like I had a hard time staying focused

01:29:17

on the book and it made it harder to get through.

01:29:20

I don't know why that is, maybe it's just me,

01:29:23

but because of that, I struggle with it.

01:29:25

That said, having gone through it, it's an awesome book.

01:29:28

I'm very grateful for having read it.

01:29:31

So I don't wanna discount that as well.

01:29:34

I just feel like there's a little bit of a shortcoming

01:29:36

in some of the choice of style there

01:29:39

that could have maybe helped some of these points

01:29:41

to get them across a little bit better.

01:29:44

Not since they did a bad job, just better.

01:29:48

Anyway, that's my opinion.

01:29:50

So all that to say, I'm gonna put it at a 4.5.

01:29:52

It's very far up there.

01:29:55

I just have that one complaint with it.

01:29:59

Well, let's put this one on the shelf.

01:30:02

What is next, Joe?

01:30:03

Next is one I'm like super, super giddy about.

01:30:09

The future is analog by David Sacks.

01:30:12

This is a follow up of sorts

01:30:15

to the revenge of analog that he wrote

01:30:19

that I read a few years ago.

01:30:21

And I'm excited about this.

01:30:24

Basically, we get to talk about analog stuff.

01:30:28

We're gonna have fun with this amazing.

01:30:31

I'm itching to get into this.

01:30:32

It'll be good.

01:30:33

All right.

01:30:34

So yes, the future is analog.

01:30:36

And what is this book choice that you won't tell me about?

01:30:39

You have to tell me now.

01:30:40

(laughs)

01:30:42

Well, I will tell you now.

01:30:44

So this is a Bookworm Club recommendation by Martin,

01:30:49

who I believe is still in the chat

01:30:54

for the live recording.

01:30:55

So thank you, Martin, for recommending this.

01:30:57

Because this is a topic that has come up several times

01:31:02

and you're right, we should be reading a book on this.

01:31:07

So we are going to read a book on motivation.

01:31:10

And the book we are going to read

01:31:13

is Susan Fowler's Master Your Motivation.

01:31:17

And I'm putting the onus on this one squarely on you, Martin.

01:31:22

You've recommended this multiple times now.

01:31:24

I saw you just recommended it after the last episode

01:31:28

and went back and read the original recommendation

01:31:31

in the club.

01:31:32

I feel like if you believe in something enough

01:31:35

to recommend it with that much space in between,

01:31:38

this has got to be a pretty significant read.

01:31:41

Because if you look for a motivation book on Amazon,

01:31:46

good luck.

01:31:47

But this one looks interesting.

01:31:51

I don't have it yet.

01:31:52

But yeah, three scientific truths for achieving your goals.

01:31:57

Right there on the cover.

01:32:01

Science, truths, goals, motivation.

01:32:07

OK, I have very high expectations already.

01:32:13

Well, I'm going into it a little bit apprehensive,

01:32:17

but I really do like the topic of motivation.

01:32:20

Talk about that before on the show.

01:32:21

And I think we get a good book on motivation,

01:32:25

which this looks just as good as any of the other ones

01:32:28

that I've seen.

01:32:30

Then it'll be a fun conversation at the very least.

01:32:34

So there we go.

01:32:35

As Martin says, he's going into hiding.

01:32:39

OK, all right.

01:32:40

All right, got any gap books?

01:32:46

No, heavens, no.

01:32:48

This one took a lot.

01:32:50

So no, I should have said that, yes,

01:32:53

I was going to read something at the times I would normally read at night,

01:32:56

but it was processing at that point,

01:32:59

even though it was like 14 hours later.

01:33:01

So no, I did not.

01:33:05

But you, anything?

01:33:07

I don't have anything selected yet.

01:33:11

However, we leave for a family vacation for a week on Monday,

01:33:17

assuming we don't get 16 inches of forecast snow.

01:33:20

So is the storm that we just went through still on its way to you?

01:33:25

No, we got got that one, but there's another one coming.

01:33:29

Is that coming through me to you?

01:33:32

I haven't looked at the weather.

01:33:34

Probably at some point.

01:33:35

I don't know.

01:33:36

Hopefully not.

01:33:37

Just got hammered.

01:33:38

Yeah, so we're recording this on Friday.

01:33:41

We would normally record it on Thursday.

01:33:43

It's because I got hammered yesterday.

01:33:45

Yes.

01:33:46

Anyway, with snow, not in other ways.

01:33:49

Yeah.

01:33:51

So hopefully on Monday, I will be somewhere where there is no snow and no work

01:33:57

responsibilities.

01:33:58

And I will have a book that I will be reading as a gap book, but I have not

01:34:01

selected it yet.

01:34:02

So I will report back.

01:34:06

I will have one next time, but I don't know where it is yet.

01:34:09

Sounds good.

01:34:11

All right.

01:34:12

So thank you to everyone who supports the podcast.

01:34:15

Thank you to everyone who joined us for the live recording here today.

01:34:19

And thank you, especially to the Bookworm Club Premium members.

01:34:24

I would say go to bookworm.fm/membership and sign up, but we're in the

01:34:30

middle of migrating things.

01:34:32

We'll make that link still work.

01:34:33

OK.

01:34:34

I know some people have had some issues signing up for things like I mentioned

01:34:39

at the beginning, we're in the process moving everything over to circle, which

01:34:42

is a much, I would say more user friendly interface and hopefully won't have to

01:34:48

bug Joe about everything that goes right long because he's the only one who has

01:34:52

the developer mind to fix it.

01:34:53

If you do decide to support the show, what you get as a couple of perks in

01:34:58

addition to our undying gratitude is the mind map files that I mentioned earlier.

01:35:05

I put those in the club and there is both a PDF version and also an

01:35:10

editable mind node version.

01:35:11

My note is the application that I use to make them.

01:35:13

So I make those available, do a dump every couple of months and throw a

01:35:16

bunch of new ones in there.

01:35:17

There's also a bookworm wallpaper that I created a while back.

01:35:22

Some gap book episodes that Joe has recorded and the new perk we mentioned at

01:35:26

the beginning, the ad free version of the show.

01:35:28

We don't even have ads every episode yet, but as it grows, if those really bother

01:35:34

you or you want to listen to it without the ads, then by being a paying member,

01:35:38

you get access to a new feed.

01:35:39

So just grab that feed, subscribe to that one in your podcatcher of choice.

01:35:44

Keep the old one.

01:35:45

We'll take the downloads.

01:35:46

Keep them both in your podcatcher.

01:35:49

Yep.

01:35:49

But thank you to everyone who has supported the show.

01:35:54

Yeah.

01:35:56

And I would just piggyback on that and say, you know, pay attention to if you're

01:36:00

on the discourse forum for the club, I think just pay attention to that.

01:36:04

I'm going to be posting some stuff as we work on this migration.

01:36:07

So just be patient with us as we're doing that move and you'll hear from a son.

01:36:12

What you need to do if there's anything you need to do to help with that process.

01:36:17

So thanks for your patience on that.

01:36:19

That said, if you are one of these amazing people who reads along with us,

01:36:23

because we know all of you do, you need to pick up the route.

01:36:27

The future is analog by David Sacks and we'll cover that one with you in a couple of weeks.