Bookworm Transcripts

00:00:00

This episode of Bookworm is brought to you by Factor Meals, America's number one ready

00:00:04

to eat meal kit.

00:00:05

Get 50% off at factormeals.com/bookworm50 and use the code Bookworm50.

00:00:12

Welcome back to Bookworm.

00:00:14

We continue the tour of special guests on Bookworm.

00:00:19

So today I have with me my buddy Mike Farti.

00:00:22

Hey Mike.

00:00:23

Hey Mike, how's it going?

00:00:24

Really appreciate you having me on the show.

00:00:26

Yeah, absolutely.

00:00:28

So I am excited to talk about this book with you today.

00:00:33

I know you mentioned that you have not only read it, I believe you've talked to the author.

00:00:38

I've read Brad's other book, The Practice of Groundedness, before this one.

00:00:45

So I was a big fan of, and we've had a few exchanges on Twitter.

00:00:48

I did have a conversation with Brad related to that book.

00:00:53

And when I saw this one, it was coming out.

00:00:55

Well actually, I knew it was coming out and then you mentioned the book.

00:01:00

I'm like, oh yeah, I'm totally going to be getting that book.

00:01:04

And you asked if I wanted to talk about it.

00:01:06

I'm like, OK, so I went and got the book, which is not typical.

00:01:10

Normally the podcast, if I'm going to have somebody on my show, they'll send me a copy

00:01:13

of the book.

00:01:14

But I like Brad's work, what I see from him online, not just his past books, but also

00:01:21

his discourse on Twitter.

00:01:23

And he's definitely diving more into things like Instagram.

00:01:29

I just dig what he's talking about.

00:01:34

And so yeah, I thought let's have a conversation.

00:01:37

And then I just emailed him and said, hey, picked up your new book.

00:01:41

Let's have you on my show again.

00:01:42

So hopefully that's going to happen at some point as well.

00:01:45

Awesome.

00:01:46

Well, this is the book that I heard about basically from you.

00:01:50

So you were the natural person to have this son.

00:01:53

I'm curious.

00:01:54

Have you-- do you listen to Kel Newport's podcast at all?

00:01:59

On and off.

00:02:00

On and off.

00:02:01

So I mean, the last two episodes as of this recording, I definitely added to my overcast

00:02:06

queue, which I think the latest one is, like, why are you tired?

00:02:11

And because I'm so interested in, like, the night owl and body clock stuff, I'm going

00:02:14

to dive into that one.

00:02:16

And then there was one you recommended to be that I definitely should listen to, which

00:02:18

is the one about, like, starting your year at a different time, which is also what I

00:02:22

do, right?

00:02:23

Like, don't start January.

00:02:24

So--

00:02:25

Yeah, I heard him talking about starting the year later, and I thought a year right away.

00:02:29

Yeah.

00:02:30

Well, he did an interview with Brad.

00:02:33

That was really good.

00:02:35

You can tell that they have had conversations before and there's good chemistry between

00:02:40

them.

00:02:41

But I really enjoyed that article and it got me real excited for this book.

00:02:45

I guess we should back up just a little bit here, right at the beginning.

00:02:48

And I'll let you point people to the appropriate place.

00:02:52

I would introduce you, but you have so many things going on that I'm not sure where you

00:02:57

want me to send people.

00:03:00

The biggest focus I have right now, there's two-- well, I mean, I guess there's two.

00:03:04

It's really interesting because over the years, productivity has just kind of grown into, you

00:03:10

know, more of a membership community through the time crafting approach and framework that

00:03:15

I teach.

00:03:16

So you can still go to Productivities.com and you'll see my podcast, the blog post, all

00:03:20

that stuff.

00:03:21

But at the upper right corner, Productivities.com, you'll see like join time crafting trust

00:03:25

premium.

00:03:26

And I'm spending a lot more time in there hanging out with my community.

00:03:29

You know, we have I think about 700 people in the community overall and about 200 premium

00:03:36

members of the community.

00:03:37

So I'm spending a lot of time there.

00:03:39

That's one portion, I guess.

00:03:41

And then the other portion is, you know, working on, you know, I've got the Productivity Diet

00:03:46

book that's in the process of getting ready for launch.

00:03:50

And I've got a couple other kind of writing projects that are in the works as well.

00:03:55

So I mean, between running that part of the business, you know, the productivity is part

00:03:59

for lack of a term.

00:04:00

And then my writing part, which is, you know, how I got started in this whole thing in the

00:04:03

first place.

00:04:05

And then, I mean, that coupled with the changes that are going on in my life personally with

00:04:11

my daughter now 18 and as of this recording, literally before we hit record, her and my

00:04:16

wife were what's happening back and forth while my my daughter's discussing like the

00:04:20

challenges of, you know, European travel for the next four months.

00:04:25

So that phase of change, all of those things kind of oddly enough when, you know, when

00:04:32

I saw Brad's got a book coming out about change, I'm like, oh, yeah, let's dig into that.

00:04:37

But yeah, primarily you send people to productivity.com.

00:04:41

They're going to get to time crafting trust.

00:04:43

And then from there, you know, the books and all that stuff.

00:04:45

So cool.

00:04:46

Well, productivity is the thing that I first came in contact with.

00:04:51

And short personal story here.

00:04:53

When I first started writing online before I joined Asian efficiency, even I decided to

00:05:01

start a blog and start writing consistently.

00:05:03

And I think I published like three or four blog posts at that point before I mentioned

00:05:08

an old episode of Mike's on Mike's that I had listened to where you talked about your

00:05:13

words for the year.

00:05:14

And I'm like, that's a cool idea.

00:05:16

And I linked to it.

00:05:18

And I was the happiest kid in Disneyland when Mike Vardy showed up on my blog to leave a

00:05:24

nice comment before I knew who you were.

00:05:30

So that sticks with me and I appreciate you taking the time to fill in for Joe here.

00:05:36

Let's jump into the book.

00:05:37

Actually, before we jump into the book, I should make one other announcement because

00:05:41

I currently have an obsidian cohort going.

00:05:45

But I also have an obsidian 101 self-paced course now available.

00:05:51

So if you didn't get into the cohort, if you joined the cohort, great.

00:05:57

Thank you.

00:05:58

You already have access to this course.

00:05:59

But it is now publicly available for everyone who did not join the cohort.

00:06:04

It's $97, but that whole cost can be applied towards a future cohort.

00:06:09

Because the idea of this is that it kind of lays the foundation, gets you up to speed

00:06:13

with the fundamentals of obsidian so that you can dive deeper into like the values-based

00:06:18

productivity and creativity workflows that I talk about in the PKM stack, which was the

00:06:24

subject of the last email and the last YouTube video.

00:06:27

I'll put links to that stuff in the show notes for people.

00:06:31

But it's about two hours worth of self-paced videos.

00:06:33

If you want to go through that, you can find out more information and see a sample video.

00:06:38

Get the whole table of contents at obsidianuniversity.com/101.

00:06:44

Alright, so let's jump in here to the book.

00:06:49

Now masters have changed.

00:06:51

Normally, this is the part where we talk about with Joe who picked this.

00:06:57

Why did they pick it?

00:06:58

This was just something that when you first mentioned that this book was out there and

00:07:04

I saw the title, I was like, "I need this book right now."

00:07:09

Because I feel like I am in a season where everything is changing.

00:07:15

It's weird to say that being six months now almost removed from the decision to go full

00:07:21

time independent creator but still trying to get my feet underneath me, figure things

00:07:25

out.

00:07:26

In the middle of all that, Joe has stuff going on and he can no longer be on Bookworm.

00:07:31

I remember having that first conversation.

00:07:33

I was like, "This is the last thing that I need right now."

00:07:39

This book, I picked this up, hoping to find a few mindsets and tactics that could just

00:07:48

help me.

00:07:49

I don't like to use the word "cope" but that's really the thing.

00:07:53

There was a lot going on and I just wanted to get a little bit of stability.

00:07:58

That's what I was looking for with this.

00:08:00

It's a short book.

00:08:02

It's got three parts but it's only six chapters.

00:08:05

We'll probably go through this plus an introduction to that conclusion.

00:08:08

We'll probably go through this chapter by chapter.

00:08:12

I'm curious.

00:08:13

When you first picked up the book, Mike, what was your first impression or what were you

00:08:16

expecting from this book?

00:08:19

Well, first off, having read Brad's book, The Practice of Groundedness before this one,

00:08:23

which by the way was my introduction to Brad's work.

00:08:25

I know he's written the Passion Paradox, I believe is the name of one of the other books

00:08:32

he's written.

00:08:33

He is a peak performance coach.

00:08:36

It's funny you say that this is a time for you to read this book.

00:08:42

It couldn't have come along at a really better time even though you're six months into the

00:08:45

process.

00:08:46

Well, the only constant is change.

00:08:50

Reading it right now was something I'm like, "Yeah, I'm going through some change right

00:08:55

now."

00:08:57

I know the way that Brad's writing.

00:08:59

It's funny you mentioned Cal.

00:09:00

I think Cal and Brad have a very similar style of writing.

00:09:03

I think Brad's writing is maybe a little bit more, a little bit, I could say less academic

00:09:09

because I don't think that that's necessarily true.

00:09:11

I think it's just presented differently.

00:09:12

I think if you like Cal Newport's writing, I think you'll like Brad's if you want to be

00:09:19

more of a layperson, I guess, for life and better term.

00:09:21

Yeah, they're two peas in a pod for sure.

00:09:23

They are, they are.

00:09:25

But I think so that was what made me want to read.

00:09:28

Now what's interesting, you say it's a short book.

00:09:31

There are lots of short books out there that are heavier reads than they be lies how deep

00:09:38

they go.

00:09:41

I was surprised at how the book was constructed in terms of the chapters, in terms of breaking

00:09:49

into three parts is not uncommon.

00:09:51

But I think this book was not one that, and we talked about this, it's one that I'm going

00:09:57

to have to go over again for sure because going through it for the purposes of this

00:10:02

conversation, which I love doing is different than me just sitting and reading with it,

00:10:08

like sitting with it.

00:10:09

I think there's elements of this book that you need to sit with and going into that,

00:10:15

going into reading this, if you're going to pick it up, I would recommend that you kind

00:10:19

of read a chapter or, I mean, you could get away with reading a part and sitting with

00:10:23

that part dwelling on it over a few days, but it's not a speed read.

00:10:27

It may be a quick read, but it's not a, like, you can get through it in a weekend and get

00:10:34

the most out of it, right?

00:10:36

You know what I mean?

00:10:37

Yeah, that's totally fair.

00:10:39

This is definitely a media book.

00:10:41

The way it's constructed part one is rugged and flexible mindset.

00:10:45

Part two is rugged and flexible identity.

00:10:46

Part three is rugged and flexible actions.

00:10:49

Just by the titles there of the different parts, it feels like this is a very focused book.

00:10:58

And you mentioned that it's not unusual for books like this to have three parts.

00:11:03

That's kind of running joke on a book where I'm like, "Hey, look, this book has three

00:11:06

parts," because they all have three parts.

00:11:09

Yeah.

00:11:10

It's not a, to be fair, it's not any kind of initialism or acronym in those three parts.

00:11:15

So it's not like some kind of code word.

00:11:17

Believe me, I read plenty of books that have like, you know, and I love me a good acronym

00:11:21

or a good initialism, but this one stays away from it.

00:11:24

Yeah, but what I like about this, I think, is typically when you have the three parts,

00:11:31

it's trying to cover a whole bunch of different things and tie them together loosely.

00:11:38

And by using the term rugged and flexible for each one of these, it kind of puts firm

00:11:44

boundaries around the scope of this particular book.

00:11:49

So Master of Change, that title could actually go a bunch of different directions, but he's

00:11:56

focusing solely on this rugged and flexible idea, which he introduces in the introduction.

00:12:02

So maybe we should talk about that here first, because the introduction is where he lays the

00:12:08

groundwork.

00:12:10

And this is the most dense introduction, I think, of any book that I've ever read.

00:12:13

Because he uses a whole bunch of scientific terms and defines a whole bunch of stuff.

00:12:19

He talks about the rugged and flexible thing.

00:12:22

And then he talks about the way that people deal with change and disorder events, which

00:12:27

is something that fundamentally shifts our experience of ourselves in the world that

00:12:30

we inhabit.

00:12:31

Now, it's interesting about that disorder event.

00:12:34

I think it's in this first section.

00:12:35

He talks about how we encounter a bunch of these throughout our life.

00:12:41

The average person goes through 38 of them, 36, I forget, in the scope of a lifetime,

00:12:48

which is a lot.

00:12:49

And being in one right now, I can tell you, you're not counting it off and being like,

00:12:55

well, there's one down, 35 more to go.

00:12:58

Like you're just trying to get through the one that you're in.

00:13:01

Yeah.

00:13:02

So I feel like this is potentially it anyways, at the very beginning here, a very helpful

00:13:08

book, and I like the fact that he defines that change is neutral, change is change.

00:13:13

Reminds me of something Ernie said at our retreat.

00:13:15

I don't mind what happens.

00:13:17

Yep.

00:13:18

Well, and I think the other thing is, is he is very much a, and if you've listened to

00:13:24

Brad's other, like interviews, like Rich Roll, he's been on Rich Roll's podcast a few times.

00:13:28

I just listened to the most recent episode, which is related to this book.

00:13:33

He is very much a person who likes to steer from extremes, right?

00:13:38

So he looks for the and more than the or when it comes to a lot of this stuff.

00:13:44

That's why you see rugged and flexible mindset.

00:13:46

Those things may seem that they're not any of the parts, you know, rugged and flexible

00:13:52

mindset, rugged and flexible identity, rugged and flexible actions.

00:13:56

Those two words that describe each of them, you know, rugged and flexible, they may seem

00:14:01

like they are, you know, not opposites, but they may not seem like they necessarily go

00:14:07

together.

00:14:08

And that's where he spends this time.

00:14:10

And in the introduction, he really kind of, I think that's one of the things he not only

00:14:13

gets into like the science behind it and things you haven't thought about.

00:14:17

But I think he's combating maybe the term change management, this idea of, you know, how to,

00:14:23

you know, he's not really into managing change.

00:14:28

I think it's interesting that as I was reading it, he's interested in it.

00:14:31

In helping you manage your relationship with change.

00:14:35

And that really spoke to me, especially because that's what I think about when I think about

00:14:38

time for the work I do is I'm not trying to help people manage time.

00:14:43

Time will not be managed.

00:14:45

Time moves on whether you want it to or not.

00:14:48

But managing your response, managing your relationship, managing like that's really what

00:14:54

he's kind of focusing on, especially when he gets into the idea of homeostasis versus

00:14:58

which we'll get into all that stuff.

00:15:01

But I felt that the introduction, first off, as I was going through the introduction, I

00:15:05

didn't realize I was still in the introduction at certain parts.

00:15:08

That's how far it was in.

00:15:11

But it wasn't like, I didn't feel like as I was reading it, like, oh, here we go.

00:15:16

Like, let's get into it.

00:15:17

It wasn't like this is going to be a slog.

00:15:20

It was just, I think he was just, again, setting the table based on managing expectations.

00:15:27

And I think that that, that taking the time to do that, I wonder if he had to fight for

00:15:30

that.

00:15:31

I wonder if he had to fight with his editor to get an introduction in there that long.

00:15:35

Or if he had to, otherwise he would end up having to divide part three into four parts

00:15:39

or something like that.

00:15:41

What is change could have very easily been that whole thing, right?

00:15:45

Exactly.

00:15:46

Yeah.

00:15:47

But he really wants to define rugged and flexible here.

00:15:49

It takes a little while to get there.

00:15:51

Obviously, he talks about the disorder events.

00:15:52

He talks about changes neutral.

00:15:54

You mentioned homeostasis.

00:15:55

He defines that here, which is just the process of things going to disorder and then back

00:15:59

again.

00:16:00

And that's what people want.

00:16:02

Typically, he talks about the four ways people usually respond to change, attempt to avoid

00:16:07

it or refuse to acknowledge it, actively resist it, sacrifice agency amidst chaos and

00:16:12

try to get back to where we were.

00:16:14

But then he defines allostasis, which is the stability through change.

00:16:18

So instead of going from order to disorder back to order, it's order to disorder to reorder.

00:16:24

So it's something new that comes from the process of the change.

00:16:28

That to me is the thing that he needs to drive home.

00:16:32

It's almost, again, in your work, in my work, in even the stuff that I think a lot of people

00:16:38

approach, there's these old tropes that are tired and they're not aligned with the way

00:16:43

the world works now necessarily, but they're so ingrained.

00:16:49

And homeostasis, he, that's why we talk about homeostasis.

00:16:52

You learned about homeostasis in school in relation to biology and all that stuff, right?

00:16:58

So you kind of, but then allostasis, I don't, I don't think I've ever heard that phrase

00:17:03

before it if I have, I certainly haven't heard it in such a concentrated way throughout

00:17:08

an entire, you know, book or article even.

00:17:13

And what I love about it is this idea that he's saying, look, when something changes,

00:17:20

it is never the same again.

00:17:22

I know he uses, he deftly trods the line, you know, when he talks about polarizing topics.

00:17:31

Again, he's more of a this and that person.

00:17:34

And I'm jumping a bit, but I mean, the bottom line is, is that the idea of order, disorder,

00:17:41

order, he, he's driving home to point that what was ordered before is never order again.

00:17:48

There's a process of reordering and he's really trying to drive that home.

00:17:53

And what's, I guess, I don't know how you felt about this, but as he was doing this,

00:17:57

I'm like, this is why rugged and flexible applies because I know it would scare the crap

00:18:02

out of people to hear that.

00:18:04

Oh, no, you mean it's true.

00:18:07

Things never do go back.

00:18:08

And he's using like, not, not anecdotal evidence in its entirety, which happens a lot.

00:18:13

And he's, you know, in books like this, but actual data like studies and, you know, empirical

00:18:20

stuff that, you know, makes you think twice about it.

00:18:23

Yeah, exactly.

00:18:25

The rugged flexibility that's basically you're tough enough to adapt and change, which you're

00:18:30

right.

00:18:31

Those terms don't necessarily seem like they go together, but it makes sense when you realize

00:18:35

that healthy systems don't resist change.

00:18:37

They adapt to it.

00:18:38

They move forward with grace and grit as he puts it.

00:18:41

Yep.

00:18:42

Yeah, really powerful idea.

00:18:45

And I guess you could make the argument at this point that that whole section of the

00:18:49

introduction, that's the crux of the idea.

00:18:51

I mean, the next three parts are going to unpack it a lot further.

00:18:55

I know I've read a lot of books where it could have been a blog post.

00:18:57

I don't feel that way about this one, but that there's a, there's a complete thought

00:19:01

inside of that introduction.

00:19:04

You could read just a part, get a lot out of it, but it also sets the stage for everything

00:19:08

else.

00:19:09

It's almost like a thesis that he's writing.

00:19:10

You know what I mean?

00:19:11

Like he's writing it.

00:19:12

Yeah, at the point.

00:19:13

And the rest of the book is like, like this is what I'm going to challenge.

00:19:16

And here are my next three parts that will help me challenge this idea that change, we

00:19:21

don't know.

00:19:22

We need to understand what change truly is in order for us to cope with it, not control

00:19:27

it, not any of that.

00:19:29

Just cope and adjust our responses to it.

00:19:32

Yep.

00:19:33

Use it for our purposes.

00:19:35

I get the idea of like surfing the wave sort of a thing.

00:19:38

Leverage it.

00:19:39

Yeah.

00:19:40

Leverage word, but still it's true.

00:19:43

That's what, that's how you master something, right?

00:19:45

To a degree, right?

00:19:46

You know how to leverage it in the best way possible.

00:19:47

Yeah.

00:19:48

It reminds me of something I heard about from Dan Sullivan, I think the experience transformer.

00:19:56

And that transformer word is the key one.

00:20:00

It's like this thing happened and he's a business coach.

00:20:02

So talking about this thing happened in business and maybe it's something you didn't want to

00:20:07

have happen, but you can go through the experience transform, which is like a PDF worksheet.

00:20:10

And figure out essentially, okay, this thing happened.

00:20:14

Now what are we going to do about it and how are we going to move forward essentially

00:20:18

from this disruptive event?

00:20:21

It reminded me of, you know, again, I take my lessons from not just books, but from movies

00:20:27

and TV shows like vision in Age of Ultron saying something isn't beautiful because it

00:20:31

lasts, right?

00:20:33

You know, Walter Mitty, it's like, you know, sometimes all the moment wants is your attention.

00:20:40

Like things like that.

00:20:41

And in this instance, I very much was like, and visions said the same thing.

00:20:46

Humans are odd.

00:20:47

They think that chaos or order are different things when they're really two sides of the

00:20:50

same coin, right?

00:20:51

And so I was open to this.

00:20:53

I think that's the other thing too is, and I mean, imagine, you know, looking at the catalog

00:20:58

of books that book form is you really have to be by the time you're done the introduction,

00:21:03

you're either in or out.

00:21:05

True.

00:21:06

You'll either put the book down to read it when you're ready or you'll put the book down

00:21:10

and go whatever, dude, or you'll dive in, right?

00:21:15

I think that and there's something to be said for that because that in and of itself is

00:21:22

the whole point.

00:21:24

Like if you go, if you make it past the introduction, I think like, and kind of like, hey, either

00:21:29

with a curiosity mindset or with like, if you remove judgment from it and go into then

00:21:35

that proves you have a mindset that's capable.

00:21:37

We all have mindsets and we have the ability to kind of thrust those qualities of ruggedness

00:21:44

and flexibility into all of those things he talks about.

00:21:47

If you, when you read the introduction and you're like, yep, all right, let's go then.

00:21:52

And I think that I don't know if that was Brad's purpose.

00:21:55

It'll be interesting if, because I think you might be talking to him at some point too.

00:21:58

I'm not sure entirely, but you guys, we're all trying to connect to him.

00:22:01

We've reached out.

00:22:02

Yeah.

00:22:03

Yeah.

00:22:04

And I think that is, is that once it's not just like a here, it's not an opening salvo,

00:22:10

but it's almost like, all right, I don't want to waste your time necessarily.

00:22:15

This is what I believe.

00:22:17

This is what the evidence is showing.

00:22:19

Let's move forward together.

00:22:20

And at that point in time, you're either going to go with, go along for the rider.

00:22:23

You're going to, you know, pace it at your own pace or just get off the ride altogether.

00:22:27

Yep.

00:22:28

And I appreciate that, that approach.

00:22:31

Yeah.

00:22:32

Let's jump into the first part here.

00:22:36

And maybe we do this chapter by chapter.

00:22:38

Maybe we just take this part by part because I don't have a whole lot of notes for the first

00:22:42

chapter, which is open to the flow of life.

00:22:46

The big ideas here, change is rarely ever easy.

00:22:51

Resisting change can actually cause psychological and physical suffering.

00:22:56

So you don't want to do that to yourself.

00:23:00

And that gets into kind of like the opposite of the rugged and flexible, which on the surface

00:23:06

feels, when you hear the terms, like rugged and flexible, those sound like positive terms.

00:23:12

And then the negative version of that would be weak and rigid.

00:23:16

But if you think about these, it's really just kind of flipping the order.

00:23:21

So I feel like there's not a really big line here between these two.

00:23:28

What weak and rigid essentially is that you don't have the strength to weather change,

00:23:35

but you cling desperately to the way things used to be.

00:23:41

And this kind of reminded me of a saying I've heard previously, strong convictions,

00:23:46

lightly held.

00:23:47

That's kind of the opposite of the weak and rigid.

00:23:48

That's going back into like the rugged and flexible, but it's strong convictions.

00:23:54

So I really believe what I believe, but lightly held, I'm willing to change my mind if presented

00:23:59

with new and better information.

00:24:02

The opposite of that, the weak and rigid version is I'm not really quite sure what

00:24:07

I believe I'm not willing to take a stance on anything.

00:24:12

But I view any additional information as a threat.

00:24:17

Yeah.

00:24:18

And that's all rooted in fear, right?

00:24:20

Yeah, exactly.

00:24:21

The fear of the unknown.

00:24:23

And I think the interesting thing about when rigidity is, you're right, there's a very

00:24:29

thin line.

00:24:30

There's very, I remember talking to Joey from Baron Figue about this when we were talking

00:24:34

about time crafting at one point.

00:24:37

And he said that your system seems rather rigid, like themed days.

00:24:40

And this is the day that you like, yeah, but I don't say, for example, that on Tuesday,

00:24:45

it's the day that I focus, it's trustworthy Tuesday because I focus on time crafting trust.

00:24:50

It doesn't mean it's the only thing I'm doing.

00:24:51

I'm sitting here right now talking to you.

00:24:55

It's having the, it's having something there that you can rely on, that you can use as

00:25:00

a default.

00:25:01

And I think that's really where the line is, is this Patrick Rohn's talked about this idea

00:25:05

of sensible defaults, right?

00:25:07

Like those two things, default doesn't necessarily make sense a lot of times.

00:25:13

I mean, we get a new device and the defaults work for the device, but they don't necessarily

00:25:18

work for us.

00:25:20

So rigidity to me for one person, and this is where it gets tricky, it can be, oh, this

00:25:26

is way too rigid, but for another person, it can be, well, it's just structured enough.

00:25:33

And that's, and again, flexibility could be so far like, well, you know, you go to the

00:25:37

day with absolutely no focus at all, right?

00:25:40

Or you go into life with like, well, I'll just go whichever way the wind blows.

00:25:44

But that doesn't necessarily work out.

00:25:46

That's where the ruggedness comes.

00:25:47

That comes with the, the dealing of it.

00:25:49

I think the weak part is that you rely more on on, I wouldn't say the constraints, maybe,

00:25:57

but it is such a, it's such a delicate tightrope.

00:26:01

And we can all fall into it.

00:26:02

I think that's the other thing too, is that the way that this, this part works and this

00:26:07

chapter, I think in particular kind of says you need to be open to things not going the

00:26:13

way that you expect.

00:26:15

Like, and, and it doesn't mean that they will not go the way, but you need to be open to

00:26:21

the fact that, you know, for life is suffering, right?

00:26:25

Or whatever, you know, like those e-dicks.

00:26:27

He brings up a lot of like, I mean, I know that, that, um, faiths come up in, in the book

00:26:31

on a couple of occasions, if I remember correctly.

00:26:34

But yeah, I think that this, this whole part is about, and he talks about like flow and

00:26:39

fluidity and things like that, um, which are hard for humans to general that want to accomplish,

00:26:46

achieve, um, go into their, go make their way through the world with just this.

00:26:52

The, again, it's black and white for them.

00:26:55

Oh man, I need to have like, it's too lazy fair.

00:26:58

It's too this, it's too that.

00:26:59

And then there's others that like, I need to be exactly like this, like it's got to be.

00:27:02

And he's basically, no, it's both.

00:27:05

I remember in the, in the, I think it was in the introduction.

00:27:07

Um, and again, I'm jumping back a bit, but he says decision making is not about reason

00:27:12

or emotion.

00:27:13

It's about reason and emotion.

00:27:15

Yeah.

00:27:15

That's the non dual thinking.

00:27:16

It's not either or it's both and yep.

00:27:19

Right.

00:27:19

And this, this whole idea, which again, rugged and flexible gets into, but this idea of the, you know,

00:27:28

and I like the fact that mindset, the order of these parts are very important.

00:27:31

Mindset identity and then actions.

00:27:34

Because in order for you to be able to deal with the next two parts, that mindset needs

00:27:39

to be both rugged and flexible, otherwise, or it needs to default to that.

00:27:43

Yeah.

00:27:44

So that way you can get through the other two.

00:27:46

Because without that, you're not going to be able to necessarily, you know, develop.

00:27:51

What you need in part two and part three.

00:27:53

Yeah.

00:27:54

Well, I think you're hitting on something that is kind of unpacked in chapter two, which is

00:28:00

expected to be hard, the weak and the rigid thing that you were talking about.

00:28:06

The reason that things are weak and rigid is that we feel like it's a threat.

00:28:14

And that right.

00:28:15

Why we try to avoid it.

00:28:17

And he talks about in chapter two, that happiness is reality minus expectations.

00:28:23

And also that Western culture places this pressure.

00:28:27

And I can totally see this on everyone to be happy.

00:28:30

And so if you are facing something or you're going through something, then that's out of order.

00:28:37

That's something that's wrong.

00:28:38

That should not be happening to you.

00:28:40

It's unfair.

00:28:40

And I think he would say that you got a discard that that thinking and the worst way to be

00:28:49

happy is to try and be happy all the time.

00:28:51

He talks about Victor Frankl, the man search for meaning, which I mean, that book just

00:28:56

rocked my world when we read it.

00:28:58

But he brings up the idea of the tragic optimism, which is the ability to maintain hope and

00:29:03

find meaning in life, despite its inescapable pain, loss and suffering.

00:29:07

So the minute that you don't view that stuff as a critical error to the system and it's

00:29:15

just something to be dealt with, it doesn't seem like as big a deal.

00:29:19

But when you try to prevent it, like that's the other thing from this chapter that really

00:29:24

hit me is that resistance is a multiplier to the pain.

00:29:27

So suffering equals pain times resistance.

00:29:30

It's not additive.

00:29:31

It's multiplied.

00:29:32

So if you really are thinking like this is absolutely incorrect and it shouldn't be.

00:29:38

And I mean, there, there probably are places where you need to draw those lines, but you

00:29:41

can't do it every single time you encounter something that's difficult.

00:29:44

No, because that actually will make you unhappy.

00:29:48

Yes, exactly.

00:29:49

Right.

00:29:50

Which is, which is the irony of it all.

00:29:52

Right.

00:29:52

You know what I mean?

00:29:53

Like, and, and again, this comes back to the non-dual thinking and also his Brad's

00:29:57

fair, you know, fairly consistent stance of it's the and and not the or, right?

00:30:04

Like, so you can't be, if you're happy all the time, then, or striving to be happy all

00:30:10

the time, then it can actually make you miserable, right?

00:30:12

Because there's forces at play that, you know, we don't, not everything will go our way.

00:30:17

Right.

00:30:17

And when I was reading that chapter, I kept thinking about this idea of contentment.

00:30:22

Right.

00:30:24

And that's actually one of the words that I use for it for this year is, you know,

00:30:28

contentment.

00:30:29

I want to experience contentment more often than, you know, even happiness or sadness.

00:30:35

I'm not going to like, you know, kind of deflect happiness, but I know darn well that,

00:30:40

you know, you can't have happiness without sadness.

00:30:43

And I don't want to be on either side of that spectrum for too long, right?

00:30:46

You know what I mean?

00:30:47

Because with happiness, you can be in the state of euphoria where you can miss things, right?

00:30:52

But you can in the world that it is because again, there's outside forces at play.

00:30:57

Change is always happening, right?

00:30:59

Um, there's this impermanence that in fact, I would say that the impermanence almost

00:31:04

invariably will make us unhappy because of the change involved.

00:31:09

And then, but obviously you don't want to be sad all the time either because that's a,

00:31:13

that's a chasm that's very, you know, challenging to climb out of.

00:31:16

But if you can, again, emotion and reason, right?

00:31:21

And later on, we get into like the idea of independence and interdependence.

00:31:25

And I think what's fascinating about this book, Mike, and I'd love to hear your

00:31:30

thoughts, you know, as we were, is that there's a permissiveness and almost a validation

00:31:35

that comes out throughout this book of like, Oh, all right.

00:31:39

So I'm in a good, you know, going in with this mindset, this attitude, this, you know,

00:31:44

removal of, you know, again, putting it all together.

00:31:48

I can deal with whatever life throws my way, which will be change, right?

00:31:54

Um, so yeah, I found that fascinating.

00:31:57

Um, this idea of, I mean, tragic optimism.

00:32:01

There you go.

00:32:01

Like there's a classic like oxymoron, right?

00:32:04

You know, like how can optimism be tragic?

00:32:06

Well, I mean, you know, he talks about, I think he gets, does he get into self-help

00:32:12

development stuff?

00:32:13

I think he does at that point.

00:32:14

He does a little bit, but really that's tied to something back in chapter one, being

00:32:20

is better than having when you're identity, which is kind of getting the next section.

00:32:24

So we won't go there quite yet.

00:32:24

But when your identity is based on what you have, when that, when the things you

00:32:28

have, you've taken away, it is not just you've lost the stuff, but you've lost a piece

00:32:35

of yourself.

00:32:35

And the tragic optimism recognizes that things may happen.

00:32:40

Things may be taken away from me, but that doesn't change who I am.

00:32:44

And that's the thing that allows you to find hope and meaning and purpose in the midst

00:32:50

of the day to day.

00:32:51

Yeah.

00:32:52

What, what is he?

00:32:53

He says, having orientation is static and intolerant to change.

00:32:57

Yeah.

00:32:57

Being orientation is dynamic and open to change.

00:33:00

Right.

00:33:01

With the busy fall season already in swing, you might be looking for wholesome, convenient

00:33:05

meals for jam-packed days.

00:33:06

In fact, America's number one ready to eat meal kit can help you feel up fast with

00:33:11

a chef prepared dietitian approved, ready to eat meals that are delivered straight

00:33:15

to your door.

00:33:15

You can save time, eat well and stay on track with your healthy lifestyle.

00:33:20

Too busy to cook, but want to make sure that you're still eating well.

00:33:23

Well, with factor, you can do just that.

00:33:24

You can skip the extra ship to the grocery store and all the chopping prep and cleaning

00:33:28

up too, while still getting the flavor and nutritional quality that you need.

00:33:31

Factors fresh, never frozen meals are ready in just two minutes.

00:33:35

So all you have to do is heat it up and enjoy.

00:33:38

That's what I love about factor.

00:33:40

It's so fast.

00:33:41

It fits into even the busiest of schedules.

00:33:44

So if you're too busy running around during the day to think about lunch, you can still

00:33:48

keep your energy up with factors, lunch to go options, which are effortless, wholesome

00:33:52

meals like grain bowls and salad toppers, and they're ready to eat when you're on the

00:33:56

go, no microwave required.

00:33:58

You can round out your meal and replenish your snack supply with an assortment of over

00:34:02

45 add-ons, which include things like delicious apple cinnamon pancakes, bacon and cheddar

00:34:07

egg bites and potato, bacon and egg breakfast, skillets, or for an easy wellness boost,

00:34:13

try refreshing beverage options like cold-pressed juices, shakes and smoothies.

00:34:17

This September, get factor and enjoy eating well without the hassle.

00:34:21

Simply choose your meals and enjoy fresh flavor pack meals that are delivered right to your door.

00:34:26

Ready in just two minutes, no prep, no mess.

00:34:29

So head over to factor meals.com/bookworm50 and use the code bookworm50 and you can get

00:34:37

50% off.

00:34:38

That's code bookworm50@factormeals.com/bookworm50 to get 50% off.

00:34:45

Our thanks to factor meals for their support of the Bookworm podcast.

00:34:49

Yeah.

00:34:50

So actually, if you are good with it, we can move on to the next chapter because I feel

00:34:54

like this, this is the perfect segue.

00:34:57

In chapter three, we're talking about cultivating a fluid sense of self.

00:35:01

And this is all based in the identity.

00:35:03

So the being instead of the, the having, he talks about

00:35:07

how we've got many lenses that we look at the world through.

00:35:10

The best athletes are the ones who are both independent and interdependent.

00:35:15

So again, not either or but both and again, when they are on the field.

00:35:19

So they are who they are regardless of where they are, but also their environment does play a role.

00:35:27

There is a factor there.

00:35:29

Now, one of the things that I appreciate about Brad is that he is a runner who has

00:35:37

dealt with injuries.

00:35:38

I know exactly what that's like.

00:35:40

So he talked about identity and he was a big runner and I think he had to have surgery.

00:35:48

So he couldn't run anymore.

00:35:50

And then he got into some, some other stuff, like powerlifting and things like that.

00:35:54

Mm hmm.

00:35:55

But the identity he had was as a runner.

00:35:59

Right.

00:36:00

I, I literally did this.

00:36:02

My first half marathon that I ran, I overtrained.

00:36:06

I, the patella tendon slipped off my kneecap on the side of my leg during the, the, the race.

00:36:13

And I remember being in a lot of pain as I finished, but you know, I had set this goal 18 months earlier.

00:36:19

I had trained really hard.

00:36:20

I was going to finish it no matter what.

00:36:21

I actually ran through the pain, finished with a really great time, better than I was, was hoping to, but also knew that I was not going to repeat that any time soon.

00:36:30

So I literally crossed the finish line.

00:36:32

And like this depression came over me.

00:36:35

It's like, yeah, what do I do now?

00:36:37

It's like I accomplished that.

00:36:40

I mean, this gets into goals versus versus identity based habits a little bit too, because I had set that goal.

00:36:48

I achieved it.

00:36:48

Now the, the media gratification wore, wore off in like 10 seconds because I knew the next goal to set was to like run another race, but also I had months of rehab in front of me.

00:36:59

So that was not going to be an option.

00:37:01

And then it's like, who am I?

00:37:04

Well, and he brings up early on, he actually tells a bit more about the story in the Rich Roll episode where he's interviewed.

00:37:10

He talks about, was it Neil's Vanderpoll, who was the speed skater, right?

00:37:16

I think it was the speed skater.

00:37:17

Yeah.

00:37:17

I remember correctly.

00:37:18

And basically he wrote like like a PDF that said like how to train for like a race and then like a half race or whatever it was.

00:37:27

And he very, I encourage you, we should put this in show, like listen to that rich role, because they have a really

00:37:33

interesting conversation because Rich Roll is a runner too.

00:37:36

Right.

00:37:37

So they have a convert that I think that's how they were friends initially and you know, what, what have you.

00:37:42

But what's interesting is just the, the back and forth about like what Vanderpoll said about training.

00:37:47

Cause what the crux is, is that he didn't want his identity to be tied to the fact that he was an athlete and that's what, you know, so he would do things like on the weekends, he would go hang out with his friends.

00:37:58

He'd go have drinks.

00:37:59

He'd be more social like that and would just not train on those days.

00:38:03

And having that fluid sense of self, which again, fluid comes up, we're like again, that flexibility, fluid, flexibility, all that stuff.

00:38:13

But, but keep in mind that talking about this idea of, you know, training heavily during the week, it doesn't, it doesn't displace that part of the identity.

00:38:26

The key is to make sure that you don't get wrapped up in this is what, because we talked about earlier, like an Eric From comes up in the book about, you know, to be to have all that stuff.

00:38:39

But again, removing that possessiveness, like I, you know, I have this or I need to do this because if I don't, then who am I, it's about letting that go.

00:38:51

And it's interesting as a, we talked about this earlier on, one thing that can have your identity take a hit is like your kid leaving.

00:39:01

Like, you know, my daughter's gone for four months.

00:39:04

I mean, I have my son here too.

00:39:06

So it's not like I'm not a parent anymore, right?

00:39:09

Or, but my parenting has had to change, right?

00:39:12

Like to let go of the fact that my daughter is, as of this moment of recording, getting ready to leave Paris and go to Spain.

00:39:20

And is dealing with like the travel woes of a 18 year old traveling through Europe, which again, first world problem, right?

00:39:29

But the disorder even for sure.

00:39:31

Yeah.

00:39:32

But that idea of like when we're all done, like, and when that, I think there's moments you talked about like the different types of stages where change and that stuff shows up.

00:39:43

Number one, you can't predict it.

00:39:45

Number two, I think when one happens and you're open to this, and again, maybe that's why this book was so.

00:39:51

Needed for me right now.

00:39:52

They're like, well, what happens in another year when she goes to university?

00:39:57

What happens in five years when my son's gone?

00:40:00

Like then who am I?

00:40:01

Because it doesn't necessarily mean your, but that's the other thing too is it's not necessarily tied to a career.

00:40:07

Yeah.

00:40:07

It's tied to every like personal stuff, right?

00:40:11

So I think that going through that last chapter and then into part two, I think kind of is like.

00:40:20

And I love the way that it ties those together, right?

00:40:23

I love the way that it kind of, you know, your, it warms you up for what's to come because I think part two is it's the middle.

00:40:33

It's the messy middle.

00:40:34

It's the hard part.

00:40:36

Yeah.

00:40:36

Um, so when he says expected to be hard earlier on in the book, it's like not just the change part, but like the thing you're going to need to do after this part.

00:40:45

Like we're stealing your mindset to be rugged and flexible so that you can have.

00:40:50

The ability to have a rock, rugged and flexible identity.

00:40:53

But there's also something in this, this chapter that irks me.

00:40:57

So he talks about our sense of self is dynamic and changing.

00:41:02

Perfect.

00:41:03

I agree with that conventional self is the present self is individual and stable.

00:41:07

Got it.

00:41:07

The ultimate self, the self connected with everyone, everything around it, always changing.

00:41:11

Makes sense.

00:41:12

Then I have something in my notes.

00:41:15

This is the first time I have taken a note on something that I felt should have been in the book, but was missing.

00:41:23

Uh, are you familiar with the story of thesis?

00:41:25

Is ship.

00:41:26

Oh, I was again, I just told you all the vision stuff.

00:41:29

Yeah, the ship of thesis, right?

00:41:31

Yeah.

00:41:31

Oh, yeah.

00:41:32

There's a whole scene.

00:41:33

Yeah.

00:41:33

This is the perfect metaphor for this.

00:41:36

And he doesn't talk about it.

00:41:38

I feel like I know, I know.

00:41:40

I feel like he didn't put the period on the end of the sentence.

00:41:43

It's like that is naturally where my mind was going is you got to have something, not that specific story, but something like that.

00:41:50

It's like a thought experiment for those who aren't familiar, the story of thesis, the ship.

00:41:54

These uses is the guy who went through the Minotaur and Greek mythology.

00:41:58

And so they brought the ship back to the museum and sold the overtime.

00:42:01

It's in the harbor.

00:42:02

It's wearing out to the replacing piece by piece.

00:42:04

Eventually, every piece of thesis ship is replaced.

00:42:06

The thought experiment is, is it still thesis ship?

00:42:10

Because it's not the materials that made up the ship.

00:42:12

It's the identity of the ship.

00:42:14

Same thing applies to us as humans, I believe.

00:42:18

So there needed to be something like that, where it's like, you're going to be changing.

00:42:22

Your identity is going to evolve.

00:42:24

And the pieces that made up who you were previously are not going to be the same.

00:42:27

And that's OK.

00:42:28

Well, and the interdependent and independent makes total sense there, too, because the ship is easiest.

00:42:34

These boards are constantly being replaced.

00:42:36

Like if they don't replace them, then the ship sinks, right?

00:42:39

You know what I mean?

00:42:40

So there is this ability, like I think there's that there, too.

00:42:43

Yeah, I mean, there's a great scene from WandaVision, where, you know, vision that's the spoiler alert, not the real vision.

00:42:52

And the actual vision have a this came out like almost two years ago.

00:42:56

So if you haven't seen it, oh, well, they're having like, they're in the middle of this massive fight, these two powerful Marvel heroes.

00:43:02

And then the way they resolve their fight is they discuss the ship of Theseus.

00:43:08

And it's so well done because at the end, it solves the problem.

00:43:14

They stop fighting.

00:43:15

It's like, you're right.

00:43:16

We are, you know, I'm this part of you.

00:43:19

You're this part.

00:43:20

Let's met mesh.

00:43:22

And real vision now has every part of what the, you know, imagined vision has and takes off, right?

00:43:28

So now that that vision is whole once again.

00:43:32

There was such an opportunity, but I also wonder if he left it out because the ship of Theseus problem has been brought up.

00:43:37

It's like the trolley problem, right?

00:43:38

Like he comes up many times and many different, many different books.

00:43:43

But you're right.

00:43:44

It would have definitely driven the point home.

00:43:46

Yeah, that's possible.

00:43:47

You know, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

00:43:49

I'm sure he's heard the story before.

00:43:51

I if I were to talk to him, I maybe not publicly, but I would love to ask him directly.

00:43:57

Like, why did you not use some sort of structure there?

00:44:02

Because because it links perfectly to the next chapter.

00:44:06

Yeah.

00:44:06

I mean, the next chapter is chapter four, dealt rugged and flexible boundaries.

00:44:11

And the big idea he talks about in this chapter is core values.

00:44:16

I mean, I love this.

00:44:19

We have got family core values that are printed and hanging on our living room wall.

00:44:25

I am all about the values.

00:44:27

I've got my life theme, email course, which is how to make your own personal mission statement, which is big step of that is identifying your core

00:44:36

values.

00:44:36

It's the core of the personal retreat stuff that I do.

00:44:39

So core values are something that you can always control.

00:44:43

And he's got some advice for selecting three to five, writing a sentence about each.

00:44:46

And then asking, how might I move in the direction of my core values?

00:44:50

I think that's all like great advice.

00:44:52

But again, you know, don't be upset about having to replace a board, maintain the identity that the values give you.

00:44:59

I mean, it's right there.

00:45:01

You know, um, one of the things

00:45:06

and I think this comes back to especially the boundaries part where people will say to me, and this is where the mindset needs to feed the second part, the identity.

00:45:15

So I'll again, back to Joey's thing of like, you know, well, you have a daily theme, but that seems really rigid.

00:45:21

I'm like, no, it's rugged and flexible.

00:45:23

What do you mean?

00:45:23

Well, I say my overarching focus on Tuesday is this stuff.

00:45:27

But if something pops up, I'm able to deal with it.

00:45:30

But then it then I can immediately my brain has a direction to go in.

00:45:35

Right.

00:45:35

Like I have, I have, and again, this leads again into part three, which is why I really enjoyed the, I mean, there is so much speaking to me in this book.

00:45:44

But this idea of boundaries, um, and rugged, uh, I think one of the things that I would love to see happen, and there's other books I hear that talk about boundaries.

00:45:58

And maybe that's where people need to go because, you know, I can't remember, was it Dr. Henry Cloud?

00:46:03

I think that wrote the book boundaries.

00:46:05

Just to talk about that idea of establishing them.

00:46:08

Because I think that, um, as I mentioned, we're now in the tough part, like develop who sits and develops core values.

00:46:15

Like I know you do.

00:46:17

I've spent time with it, but it requires a lot of you to do that.

00:46:22

It does.

00:46:23

And you all and you and you want to future proof them, right?

00:46:26

You want to be able to have them stand the test of time and whatever time throws at it.

00:46:32

So this is where I think what he did in this chapter was he couldn't go too deep on it because there are books out there about boundaries.

00:46:42

But he talks about was it Daranti, the, the actress that had, you know, that, that did a bunch of different things.

00:46:47

It was a, it was the blend, right?

00:46:49

Um, but one of the things he says, which should in the context of this book have people kind of going, okay, I need to spend time with core values.

00:46:59

Also quote, play an important role during periods of change, disorder and uncertainty.

00:47:05

Like they're the, they're not the boundaries per se, but they're the rock.

00:47:10

They're the, they're the North star.

00:47:12

They're the, the reason that people have challenging times with it and they'll use things like, I don't have time to sit with us or whatever is that they're afraid that they're making the wrong choices and that you can't change them.

00:47:23

Or that they won't apply to every situation.

00:47:29

You have to work through that.

00:47:30

Like that's the part you have to work through.

00:47:32

And the other thing is, is again, there is no black and white.

00:47:36

You will screw up.

00:47:37

There will be instances where one value gets way more benefit from an action you take or, or a decision you make than another.

00:47:47

Um, there's no such thing as perfection in this.

00:47:50

It's again, and this is where Brad excels because he talks about peak performance and things like that.

00:47:55

So he, you know, he's, he's eluding the fact, like, look, you put these in place.

00:47:59

It's going to keep you on the right path more often than not.

00:48:03

The key is, is that you need to know what the path is.

00:48:07

You need, you need to, you need like everyone, you know, has a different reason for being and how they want to operate on the path.

00:48:15

You need to have that there so that you can make the right decisions while you're traversing the path.

00:48:21

Yeah.

00:48:22

He defines core values as guiding principles.

00:48:24

And that term, I went and looked it up because my introduction to this, a whole idea of like family core values was a getaway that my wife and I did when let's see, it must have been seven or eight years old, at least.

00:48:42

Um, in Google Drive, and we titled it Schmitt's family guiding principles.

00:48:49

And we identified the core values, the desired outcomes.

00:48:52

How do we get there?

00:48:53

The details with like all the habits and the routines that we wanted to establish.

00:48:58

And, uh, so obviously I love this whole section.

00:49:03

I do wish maybe he has, because this is the first book of Brad's that I've read, but I would love to read a book from Brad just about this core value stuff.

00:49:15

Cause I feel like there's so much more he could get into with this.

00:49:18

And he obviously knows what he's talking about with this, this section.

00:49:22

I don't remember if the practice of ground and this had it in there.

00:49:26

I think there wasn't a mention of it.

00:49:29

It's again.

00:49:30

And I mean, you've read enough books to know this by the same authors.

00:49:34

You get to see like a body of work and where things go.

00:49:38

We were talking to Chris Bailey, our friend Chris Bailey about this too, because he's got a, you know, a history, a bibliography.

00:49:45

That kind of you can see the direction in which they're going based on what their subject matter is.

00:49:51

And even Brad said like this is a book that he has been like thinking about for a long time and didn't really hit home until I think it was, I think it was COVID-19 and his daughter growing.

00:50:01

I think that those two things kind of were the catalyst, if I remember correctly.

00:50:05

Yeah.

00:50:05

Um, and he talks about the idea of the core values being like the boundaries within, like helping to guide the decisions.

00:50:14

Yeah.

00:50:15

And the boundaries with you, that's what he means by rugged is that they will change and morph like anything else.

00:50:21

And they just make sure that they don't change too radically or in a direction that you don't want them to go.

00:50:26

It would be interesting to see, but I think that the issue here is, and maybe he goes down this path more specifically because this is a niche within it.

00:50:35

But this idea of identity and how values are associated with it, you could argue that Ryan Holliday has gotten into this to a greater degree as well and stuff like it.

00:50:45

But no one's really sat down and go like, like, either of those authors, if they said, here's how you like, and they were very overt about it.

00:50:53

Like, let's talk about developing your values.

00:50:55

You're right.

00:50:56

They kind of, I wouldn't say they dance around it necessarily, but they kind of leave you to your own devices a little bit.

00:51:01

Yep. As opposed to like guidance, like real, you know, kind of prescriptive guidance along the way.

00:51:07

And maybe, I don't know what the reason for that is.

00:51:11

Again, everybody adopts these values differently.

00:51:14

So that would be a huge mountain to climb probably.

00:51:17

But I agree with you, like, there's definitely some stuff there that you could go into deeper.

00:51:22

But to ask people to already start letting go of their identity as they know it and be more flexible and rugged with it, that might be the only

00:51:31

battle that Brad's willing to willing to take on in this particular book.

00:51:36

No, that's fair.

00:51:37

I just want to find another resource that's going to dive deep in that because, honestly, like the core value stuff, my wife is actually working on the outline for core values course.

00:51:46

And I know that there's got to be other stuff out there, but most of it that I have found.

00:51:52

I don't really like.

00:51:54

Well, and I think I think courses are where that would be at, too.

00:51:57

I think I think anything that kind of a bit, there's a bit of handholding along the way.

00:52:03

Yeah.

00:52:03

I think that that the medium of the book can help.

00:52:07

But it's like, it's kind of like, and he talks about actually interesting enough.

00:52:11

He talks about in earlier on the book, like Enneagram and Myers Briggs and all those tests and stuff like that.

00:52:17

Like having that awareness is one thing and knowledge is one thing.

00:52:20

It's what you do with it, right?

00:52:21

So I think that a workbook would be interesting.

00:52:25

I'd love to actually, you know what?

00:52:26

If he was to do it in a workbook style, it probably, I think it could work.

00:52:29

But in the con like in the confines of this, yeah, it would be tricky.

00:52:34

Yeah, I just I just want more because most of the conversation and the stuff that I've read about core values is very corporate core values.

00:52:43

Ask and that kind of just puts people off because a lot of times those are aspirational and vague in general.

00:52:48

And we're going to change the world.

00:52:49

And there's no real applicable value from that.

00:52:53

There's there's it's too hard for the people who work in the organization to actually connect to those values and realize how to live them out every day.

00:52:59

Which kind of leads into the next section, unless you had something else that you wanted to say about that.

00:53:04

No, no, no, no, let's keep going.

00:53:05

All right, cool.

00:53:06

So part three is rugged and flexible actions.

00:53:10

Chapter five is respond, not react.

00:53:16

And I love this.

00:53:17

There's a lot to unpack there.

00:53:20

The basic idea with this chapter, now we've got the mindset and the identity.

00:53:26

So how does that translate into our actions?

00:53:28

And this is where we get into some of the more tactical stuff.

00:53:32

This is what most of the productivity books are going to zero in on is just this stuff.

00:53:38

I appreciate that this is at the end.

00:53:42

I feel like this is not an afterthought, but it is definitely in the right order.

00:53:50

And the emphasis is on everything that has happened up until this point.

00:53:55

So I actually, this is the part of the book I enjoyed the least, probably because I feel like this part of the book is the stuff that I've heard before.

00:54:05

This is where we talk about the meditation can help you respond and not react.

00:54:10

And the two P's for reacting, which is panic and pummel versus the four P's for responding where you pause process, plan, proceed.

00:54:18

And I feel like if you're coming across that for the first time, that could be the

00:54:23

aha moment that unlocks everything.

00:54:25

So I don't fault it for being in there, but I feel like I've read this stuff before.

00:54:29

I also don't really like the serenity prayer that he leans on in this section, which this is the kind of thing that you see, like printed on the stuff in the Christian bookstores.

00:54:38

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I can't change courage, change the things I can and wisdom to know the difference.

00:54:43

It sounds good.

00:54:46

But I feel like I've seen this so many places and just it doesn't have the, I don't know, it doesn't have the impact.

00:54:58

Maybe like when you first come across it.

00:55:01

Well, here's here's, I think, the crux of this chapter.

00:55:05

And he's he mentions it in a very like your actions become more refined and aligned with your present moment reality and your values instead of with false perceptions or prior.

00:55:16

Expectations.

00:55:17

This is why it comes after that second part.

00:55:21

And I think that that why this is here and remember you and I, it's really important, I think for me as me and you, but me as somebody who really talks about like processes in terms of productiveness and, and, you know, managing your relationship with time to go.

00:55:37

Oh, here's another way forward.

00:55:40

I didn't take it that way. I took it as people have made it through and now they need something to do.

00:55:47

They need, they need to start, they need to start applying this now and not go pick up getting things done or, you know, any of the other, you know, myriad of productivity books that are out there with processes in them.

00:56:01

I think that his goal here is to have people start to push back against prior expectations and like, and the perceptions that they have.

00:56:13

It's about taking again, what did he say?

00:56:15

He says, wise, wise, wise, hope and wise action.

00:56:19

That's it.

00:56:19

Like the wisdom part.

00:56:21

He wants them to exercise the wisdom part.

00:56:23

And that's where the whole like when you mentioned response versus react.

00:56:27

That's huge because reacting is very knee jerk.

00:56:32

It definitely, it leans more towards that primitive side of our brain that just wants to deal with it, like get like the fight or flight and all that.

00:56:39

But a response requires thought, requires fluidity, requires like that, that flexibility and that ruggedness.

00:56:47

And it's harder because again, you have to take a beat and we live in a world that's engineered not to allow us to take a beat or that feels like we can't take it.

00:56:57

Take a beat, right?

00:56:58

You know, that pause is so powerful.

00:57:02

And I think that the pause in this instance, if you're going through the book and you're like taking the lessons from it is, okay, let's, let's think about this in the proper way.

00:57:14

Let's not tether it like so it's, it's, it's the rewiring of the brain for lack of better terms.

00:57:20

So I think that while I've seen this, and yeah, I mean, he talks about ecotetus and he talks about, you know, we are, we repeat like,

00:57:27

there's stuff that we've seen before based on the books that we read and that's going to happen.

00:57:31

But I think that that's why that's here is to kind of say, okay, I've given you like, I've prepared you for this.

00:57:36

Now let's start.

00:57:38

Let's, this is where the rubber meets the road.

00:57:40

And don't forget about this other stuff.

00:57:42

Is that stuff's going to allow you to respond rather than react?

00:57:45

And remember, responsiveness is also like people go, oh, well, it's either proactive or reactive.

00:57:50

No, it's not.

00:57:52

Cause proactive productivity lives inside of responsiveness, right?

00:57:57

And reactivity lives inside of responsiveness too.

00:58:00

So it's the and factor again that I think that is really powerful here.

00:58:05

I agree.

00:58:07

I kind of wish I didn't have the background I had with the family business for this part because he gets into the brain science.

00:58:15

And he uses a bunch of terms, which are slightly different than the ones that I would use.

00:58:23

And I don't think I agree 100% with the conclusions that he draws here, but generally.

00:58:28

Are you talking with the rate?

00:58:29

Are you talking with the rage and seeking pathways?

00:58:31

Are you talking about that?

00:58:32

Yeah.

00:58:33

Yeah.

00:58:34

So like I had not heard these terms before and it kind of makes sense that you have these different pathways that your emotions can go down.

00:58:41

But understanding what I do understand about brain science, I don't think it's as simple as like funneling it down the right pathway.

00:58:50

Because permit me to nerd out here for a minute.

00:58:54

Sure.

00:58:55

Go for it.

00:58:56

When something happens, your brain is trying to make sense of it and part of it goes straight to the amygdala, which is the.

00:59:04

The emotional center of the brain.

00:59:07

And that's the one that triggers the fight or flight response.

00:59:10

And part of it, you know, it takes a little bit longer, but it goes to the prefrontal cortex where it's analyzed for meaning.

00:59:16

And that's where you can respond appropriately.

00:59:18

So when the amygdala overrides the prefrontal cortex, that triggers what's called emotional hijacking.

00:59:25

That feels way more powerful as a picture.

00:59:30

Then there's these two pathways, the rage pathway and the seeking pathway.

00:59:34

And that's and that's evolutionarily designed that way.

00:59:38

Like that's just I mean, that's the older part of it.

00:59:41

That's the one that's like, if I don't get out of the way or do something, I will die.

00:59:46

Right.

00:59:48

Yeah.

00:59:48

So the pause to your point is powerful and it's important because it allows the prefrontal cortex to catch up.

00:59:55

So you don't fly off the handle in.

00:59:59

It's not just the rage.

01:00:01

It's not just getting angry.

01:00:03

Like that that could be the case, but it's not necessarily.

01:00:08

It could also be that you just run away or it could be that you are just frozen because actually it's like fight versus flight versus freeze, I guess, is the.

01:00:17

The new one, you're completely overridden by your emotions and that's kind of what he's getting at here.

01:00:23

Yeah, but I also think that it's interesting that rage and seeking are because I was talking about this with my, with my kids the other day.

01:00:33

If you're frustrated with a driver and you like verbally say something, is that road rage?

01:00:39

Is it?

01:00:40

I don't see.

01:00:41

So there you go.

01:00:41

Like, I actually said, we got to find another like, another phrase like,

01:00:47

freeway frustration or driving disappointment, like our driver disappointment, like because there's no.

01:00:53

And I think that again, what he's trying to do here, and I don't know for a fact, is that the reason you're bringing that he's bringing this up is like the default is to go either pure logic or pure emotion.

01:01:08

Yeah.

01:01:08

And reason needs to be a factor here.

01:01:12

And responsiveness is the way to reason, whereas reaction might be.

01:01:16

Yep.

01:01:17

Just like the rage pathway might be.

01:01:20

And by the way, I think it's also interesting, like the pause allows the seeking to catch up.

01:01:24

But I would also argue that if you're in a state of flow and you're productive and you take a pause, that also gives the ability for the rage pathway to get right back in there.

01:01:35

That's true.

01:01:36

In some way, shape or form, right?

01:01:37

Like, you know, that's why flow doesn't feel like time is like it moves differently and time.

01:01:43

And then the whole thing that's going to be like, "Oh, I'm going to go to the hospital."

01:01:47

And then the first thing that I've heard is, "Oh, I'm going to go to the hospital."

01:01:51

And then I'm like, "Oh, I'm going to go to the hospital."

01:01:53