Bookworm Transcripts

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I'm curious, Corey, what does thinking about a realistic apprenticeship actually mean?

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And did you do it?

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That is a great question.

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Yes, I did.

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And the problem that I have is I can't get to a realistic one at this stage in my life.

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So I can get to realistic ones if I was 20 or, you know, whatever that might be.

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But with me having a full-time job, having a family, being essentially committed to this

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location, committed to the Denver area, like it's just, it's just realistic is what makes

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that work or makes that action item really kind of challenging.

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Because I've explored, I'm like, well, what if I did a virtual one, you know, like could

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I do a virtual, you know, internship or a virtual apprenticeship, sorry, a virtual apprenticeship

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with somebody.

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It's like, yes, I think I could.

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But I just don't think I'd want to do that.

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Like, I don't think that's as interesting to me.

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So I've got a couple people identified.

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I'm intentionally not going to say them.

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But I've got a couple people that are identified.

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It's a matter of time and it's a matter of, is this the right season for that to happen?

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And I just don't think it is.

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I don't think doing an apprenticeship right now is the right season.

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Unless I could tie it into work.

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Like, if I could tie it into my workday, sure, or if I could tie it into something that I'm

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doing already, sure, the one way I would extend this to think about it that I thought, well,

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if I stop thinking about it as like a full year or a five year or a seven year or whatever

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it is, and I think about it as like, can I do a shorter, essentially internship?

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That's why I messed up and said the word internship, right?

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I thought about as an internship for like the summer.

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That gets more realistic.

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Like, that gets much more realistic to do as a shorter period of time.

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I just think I lose some of the aspects of the mastery because you need that longer period

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of time and that kind of deep connection with the person.

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Yeah.

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When you were talking about this, like, I am interested in the concept, but I have trouble

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picturing a scenario where you would actually disconnect from like the day to day and seek

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out an actual apprenticeship that feels like something that has to be done in a very specific

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season of life.

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I would agree completely.

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I would agree completely.

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And I don't think the season is right for me right now.

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Cool.

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I like the concept though.

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And yeah, we talked about this last time, but the whole concept of the many apprenticeships

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is really interesting to me.

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I guess plug for reading books in that role obviously is a co-host of a podcast that talks

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about reading books.

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I would say that, but just reiterate that plug.

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There's lots of good books out there, lots of great information from some of the best

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minds the world has ever seen.

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And if you pick one up and you don't like it, unlike us because we have to record a

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podcast about it, you don't have to finish it.

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Exactly.

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Exactly.

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And I'll say, like, pay attention and keep following up with me on this because there's

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a really good chance that, you know, I start talking about something and you're like,

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"Kori, this sounds like a mini internship.

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It sounds like you're trying to do a mini internship with this individual."

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A mini apprenticeship with this individual.

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And I'd be like, "Oh, yeah.

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I think I might be trying to do that."

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So let's see if this is one of those things that stews in the background and simmers in

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the background and then emerges somewhere.

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All right.

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So I will try to catch you in an inadvertent mini apprenticeship.

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Yes.

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Yes, do that.

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And you didn't have any follow-up items.

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You didn't have any action items from the last book.

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Are you holding to that?

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Is there anything that came out of mastery that you thought about?

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Well, I thought about lots of stuff with mastery, but no additional action items from

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it have been busy though.

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So I'm not sure I would have gotten around to my action items anyways because I do have

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one thing I want to mention here and that is that the next Life-Themed cohort is kicking

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off on Wednesday, April 26th.

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Getting my dates mixed up.

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I checked my watch here real quick and then I got completely confused.

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April 24th.

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Yeah, okay.

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Yeah, that makes more sense.

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Yeah.

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So by the time this goes out, it will have already started, but the thing that you will

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have missed is just the introductory kickoff call and then kind of the preliminary stuff

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where we talk about kind of the moments of impact.

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All of the sessions are going to be recorded and I really should have mentioned this previous

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episode.

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So I apologize for that for anybody who is interested in this sort of thing.

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If this one does not work, then you can wait and we will do another one.

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However, the price basically just keeps going up with this.

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So the last one was $197.

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This one is $297.

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If you are a member of the library, which is my community that Corey has given me a push

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to actually launch now, then there's a discount for the costs that you paid for your library

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membership.

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So that brings it down to the previous price.

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It includes six live coaching calls, essentially group coaching calls, which all happen on

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Wednesdays at 10 a.m.

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Central Time.

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So that's 11 a.m.

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Eastern and 8 a.m.

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Pacific.

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My wife and I will both be doing it together.

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Some of the feedback I got last time was that people liked Rachel more than they liked

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me, which I'm totally good with.

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She does an awesome job and it's great to have her perspective in this.

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It really makes the experience a lot better.

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So it includes access to a specific area in the community where all of the discussion

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and all the events take place.

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And basically it's six weeks where we talk through the different steps of the life theme

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identifying your moments of impact, thinking bigger, creating an image, identifying core

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values and condensing all of that down into a personal life theme.

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And then the last week is really the cool one where we all get on a call and we share

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our life theme as a result of the process.

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Some of those are pretty emotional, but they're always really, really fun.

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It's always great to hear other people share their life themes.

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And it's really cool, just kind of the camaraderie that gets built in this group over the six

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weeks.

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It's a very authentic, vulnerable, caring group of people.

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We're talking about some personal stuff as you're identifying for yourself.

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Like what is my life going to be about?

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It doesn't matter what stage of life you're at.

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We've got people in there who are just out of college, people in there who are retired

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in their 70s.

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And they all kind of say the same thing that this was a really valuable experience.

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And even if you decide not to do the life theme cohort, I encourage everyone to think

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about what is the life I want to live, how do I live out my vision and my values in a

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practical way?

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And if you want some help with that, then you can go to micschmits.com/lifetheme, get

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more details.

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With the $297, you get a year of access to the library, which that's the $100 a year.

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You get access also to the personal retreat course.

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And then I bundle both of my journaling courses together now into one course for journaling

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for personal growth.

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So that was the journaling bootcamp and the digital journaling in Obsidian.

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But those are basically just two different sections now in that journaling course.

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And all of that is in the library.

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So if that sounds like something you'd be interested in, we would love to have you

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join us.

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So I have a question about the follow up.

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What's the status of the reading workshop?

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Reading workshop as we record this is happening on Friday.

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And I am getting terrified because there are about 40 people who have signed up.

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Congrats.

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That's awesome.

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Yeah.

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So that's definitely more than I anticipated.

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I won't say it's more than I hope for, obviously, but I was kind of bracing myself.

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Like, first one, I've done like this.

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Like what if only five people sign up?

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But I was playing the long game anyways with this.

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And I want to start doing these more frequently.

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So it was kind of like, well, let's figure out the process, deliver an awesome workshop,

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and then make it better for next time.

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But yeah, a bunch of folks going to be there and it's coming together.

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It's going to be awesome, but the more people sign up, the more pressure I put on myself

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to make it awesome.

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You're going to do great.

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You're going to do great.

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And this is right in your wheelhouse with all the other stuff you do.

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So it's going to be awesome.

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I'm glad you had that much response.

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That's fantastic.

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Thank you.

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Yeah, I will actually, I'll figure out, I don't know exactly how it's going to work, but I

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will figure out a way if people are listening to this and they miss the workshop and they

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want to buy the replay.

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I'll figure out a way to do that and put the link in the show notes for people who are

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interested.

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All right, ready to talk about today's book?

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I am.

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Okay.

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So today's book is Super Communicators by Charles Duhig, how to unlock the secret language

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of connection.

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And as I told you when I saw this in the airport, as we were traveling back from our family

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vacation in Florida, I was like, oh, that looks interesting.

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And then I was like, oh, Charles Duhig was not a fan of the power of habit.

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Why?

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Can you remind me why?

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Like what was the?

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Yeah.

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Well, I don't think the book itself necessarily was bad, but the more distance I get from that

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habit loop, I think it's, it's wrong.

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And not like wrong in every sense, but just not a helpful model.

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Like James Clear's model, where he interjects the step between the queue and the routine

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is a really important one.

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And BJ Fogg, Tiny Habits talks about like why we follow through with that temptation or

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we're able to resist it.

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There's different factors at play there.

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So I just didn't like the feeling of anytime you're exposed to a queue, the routine's going

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to happen, you're a Ratna Cage, like nothing you can do about it.

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So yeah, I feel like that book was kind of held up for a long time as like the habit

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book, I think Tom McCabits has kind of replaced that.

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I think atomic habits is like the most successful self-help book ever is what I, what I heard

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and I don't remember the exact statistics about like how many copies it sold.

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But it's been at the top of the bestseller list for like years now at this point.

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So definitely like that one better.

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All that to say like had that taste in my mouth when I saw another Charles Duhig book,

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I was a little bit skeptical.

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So yeah, there's some history there I guess.

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But I actually really enjoyed this book.

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It wasn't exactly what I thought it was going to be.

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It is very much cut from the same cloth as the power of habit.

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So I'm not sure what I expected to be different here.

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Like you can kind of see the formula that he's following here.

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Just to talk through the structure of the book quickly, there are the three kinds of

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conversations.

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That's the kind of the first section.

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There's no like official parts, but that's the first part.

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And then in there, there's a chapter, which is the matching principle and then a guide

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to using these ideas part one.

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The next section is the, what's this really about conversation?

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It's chapter two and then a guide to using these ideas part two.

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Then the next part is the, how do we feel conversation?

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This says chapter three, the listening cure, chapter four.

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How do you hear emotions?

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No one says aloud, chapter five connecting a mid conflict.

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And then again, a guide to using these ideas part three, seeing a theme here probably.

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The last part is the who are we conversation has another couple chapters, chapter six,

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our social identity shape our worlds, chapter seven, how do we make the hardest conversation

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safer?

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And then of course a guide to using these ideas.

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Now the guides using these ideas are basically summaries of the main points from the chapters,

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but I do like how it's kind of packaged at the end.

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Like here's how you actually apply this.

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And then there's an afterword at the, the very end kind of like an outro at the, the

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end of the book.

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So it's a little bit more interesting, at least layout wise than the standard three part productivity

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book.

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But it definitely follows kind of that, that format.

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Now the topic of super communicators, I think is kind of interesting too.

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I don't know that the theme I had in my head when I heard super communicators was exactly

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the model that he talks about in this book.

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I guess what were your first impressions going into this before we dive into the meat?

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I was actually glad you said that because I thought the same thing, like what I expected,

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and I'm talking, just looking at the title on the front page, not reading the back of

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the book or not reading any of the blurbs or anything like that.

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I don't know, I was not expecting it to be this, I'm trying to think of the best way

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to describe it like lay level, like normal person level.

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Like I was expecting it to be like, Oh, we're going to talk about the expert skills of expert

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100%, you know, like communicators and they were going to get these, these examples of

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these big names or whatever it was.

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And it was not like that at all.

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It's much more research based.

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And it was much more like, how can you, oh, normal person be a super communicator, which

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just wasn't what I was thinking going into it.

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I liked it.

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It didn't bother me.

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It was just very different.

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So I was glad to actually hear you say that because that caught me off guard a little

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bit.

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Yeah, it's also interesting.

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Like at the beginning, he kind of talks about why he got into this topic and it was

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basically because as a someone in a leadership position, he realized he wasn't very good

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at communicating.

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So there's definitely a big dose of humility that is sprinkled in here.

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On the one hand, that's good.

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I feel like I connect more with the people who are authentic about the struggles that

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they're going through.

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On the other hand, when you pick up a book like this, you probably want to get it from

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someone who like lives this stuff.

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It has been doing it for 40 years.

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Yeah.

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At least I think that's the general inclination.

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I think that that isn't necessarily the right approach with this particular book, you know,

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just the fact that he was researching this stuff to solve a problem that he had does

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not disqualify him or diminish the value of the things that he is sharing in this book

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at all.

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But it's also interesting because as we go through here, I feel like there's a, a

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another angle to this that he is sort of touching on, but not really addressing.

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So there's an open loop for you.

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Let's talk about the three kinds of conversation here.

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Now this is the first section in the book.

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And this is where he kind of lays out his model, but the three questions that, that we

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need to ask really align with these three different types of conversations.

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So it's really, what's this really about the decision making mindset?

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How do we feel the emotional mindset and then who are we, which is the social mindset,

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the identity mindset, all based on this concept of the matching principle, which is recognizing

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what kind of conversation is occurring and then matching the other person.

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Now, I had heard about this matching concept before.

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He gets a little bit at the very beginning into the concept of neurological synchronization,

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the alignment of our brains and our bodies.

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So an example of that would be like, if you and I are walking down the street together

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and we're talking, you're walking a little bit faster than I am, I will kind of match

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your pace.

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And I won't think about it.

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It'll just kind of happen, but there's a whole bunch of things like that that happen

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when we try to communicate with, with someone.

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And so a lot of times miscommunication happens when people have different kinds of conversations.

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I can totally see that.

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The guide to using these ideas, I think we'll probably skip over these for most of these

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sections and we'll just kind of tackle it section by section.

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So as it pertains to the three kinds of conversations here, what stands out to you, Corey?

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Yeah, so first I had never thought about conversations in this way.

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So when I read this was the first I had been exposed to, are we really trying to figure

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something out like a practical decision-making type of thing?

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Is there some under like a motion where we're actually what we're talking about isn't really

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relevant to anything and then there's this identity thing?

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I don't, I think these are three good ones.

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I don't think they encompass everything though.

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So I think there's more, I haven't had the chance to unpack like what the other ones

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would be, but I just think that like I'm really good on the practical decision-making one

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because I have a lot of experience with that one.

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So it's like, okay, we're planning tomorrow.

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You know, like what do we need to do?

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We need to solve problems.

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We need to get practical.

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We need to figure that out.

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And boom, that's the whole nature of the conversation.

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I'm really good with the emotional one because I know that there are times when like I either

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want to tell you something like I just did earlier.

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I don't remember where it was in the recording thing.

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It was like basically I just wanted to tell you a thing just because it was like, I just

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want to tell you the thing, man.

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Like it really, we weren't going to make any decisions out of it.

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It was like, this is just, this is weighing on me and I need to tell you and I don't

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know what I want to do that.

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So like I see that all the time as well.

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The social one is where it, maybe I'm just different, right?

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Because I don't know, like I feel like I don't, I don't have as many of these conversations.

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So that one was a little more of a stretch for me.

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And maybe I have them more and I just didn't realize it.

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But then I think there's some other ones and I have to like figure out where they would

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sit in there.

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So it's like an example I can give you that again, I haven't flushed these out fully,

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right?

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There's a, there's a sales conversation.

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And like where does a sales conversation sit into that?

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Right?

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Because I'm going to pull some practical decision making out of it because I want you to make

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a decision out of this conversation.

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I'm going to pull some emotion into that.

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But in my mind, it's a very different conversation.

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Right?

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I have a goal or an objective with that sales conversation.

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And the part of the reason why this like comes to the top of my head is like, I know Mike,

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if you, if you came to me and I know you're a sales person and you're trying to sell me

00:19:03

new windows on my house, for my house, I approach that conversation very, very, very differently

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than I approach a practical, emotional or a social conversation.

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And it's like, so I think there are some other ones that, that weren't unpacked that

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could be unpacked.

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I would have to think hard about, about what they are.

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So those are, that's my, my, it was my first take on the three.

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I liked them, but I think there's some other things.

00:19:28

That's interesting.

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I never thought about that, but you're right.

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These sales conversations specifically, you know, based on my limited knowledge of, of

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marketing would combine a couple of these.

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So maybe these three distinctions make sense and then kind of a conversation can be more

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than one of these potentially.

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And it, and it could be that like these are the base layer.

00:19:55

Yeah.

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Like, so these, when you get down to the most fundamental, these are the base layer and

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all other conversations that are more specific have a portion of these three and we have to

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think about what portion of those and when are we using those?

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Cause, you know, I mean, I go back to the sales thing.

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I think about a sales one, there's going to be a time when I'm going to try to pull on

00:20:12

your emotions more, there's going to be a time where I'm going to try to identify with

00:20:14

you more and, and share in that, that identity, then there's going to be a time where I'm

00:20:18

trying to get you to make a decision and I'm trying to like, essentially, so I can,

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I can see them all playing into there, but overall, I mean, I think it's a good foundation

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to build on the other thing that you had brought up earlier, the matching principle.

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I had never heard this before in my life.

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So this makes sense to me like it's logical and it's intuitive that we're going to align

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on some level and the less aligned we are, the more potential conflict there is in the

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conversation, but I just never, I had never thought about it.

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And especially for my communication standpoint, I had never really thought about that before.

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Yeah, it's, it's definitely a thing, but I think you got to be careful with it too,

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because the whole term super communicator applies to people who are able to synchronize

00:21:03

effortlessly with just about anyone.

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But he does mention that you can take this too far where people know that you are really

00:21:11

trying to get in sync and then it's just awkward.

00:21:14

Yeah.

00:21:15

It's super awkward, right?

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Like, I mean, I'm sure there's somebody that popped into your mind and my mind and the

00:21:21

listener's mind and all that stuff where it's like, man, I know that person who's tried

00:21:26

a little too hard in this area.

00:21:28

I just thought of one more thing.

00:21:29

So one other thing out of the Pro wall that I thought was, was interesting and I wanted

00:21:32

him to talk more about it throughout the book, but he kind of hits it at the beginning and

00:21:37

then there's really nothing and then he hits it at the end.

00:21:40

But it's this learning conversation, right?

00:21:42

Specifically we want to learn how, how the people around us see the world and help them

00:21:47

to understand our perspective and turn.

00:21:48

I really like this idea of the learning conversation and I wanted more of that and we just, we

00:21:54

didn't get it.

00:21:55

Now, like maybe the argument is, well, all, you know, seven chapters was how to get to

00:22:00

this learning conversation.

00:22:01

But I wanted that to be explicit, more explicit throughout the book.

00:22:06

Yeah, there are definitely like pieces of this that fit together, but he doesn't package

00:22:14

it.

00:22:15

And I'm actually thankful for this as like, here's the model.

00:22:18

Boom.

00:22:19

Everything you need to know.

00:22:21

So I think that's probably the issue at the root of the issue I had with the power of

00:22:25

habit is like, boom, here it is.

00:22:27

Everything revolves around this cycle.

00:22:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:22:30

But there's so many ways where like that mental model doesn't work.

00:22:34

That's the beauty of mental models is like, you have to develop the skill to know when

00:22:38

to use them and yeah, yeah, yeah, more mental models later, potentially.

00:22:44

The other thing with this, which I think is interesting in the guide to using these ideas,

00:22:47

he offers four basic rules of a learning conversation, which these pop up throughout

00:22:52

the book.

00:22:53

So he doesn't specifically say the learning conversations, but he refers to these rules

00:22:58

pretty consistently.

00:22:59

So pay attention to what kind of conversation is occurring.

00:23:02

Share your goals and ask what others are seeking.

00:23:04

Ask what others feelings and share your own exploration of identities are important to

00:23:08

the discussion.

00:23:11

And then the other thing, which I thought was pretty brilliant is based on the three

00:23:15

types of of conversations here.

00:23:20

There's the do you want to be?

00:23:22

I feel like I should totally use this.

00:23:25

In fact, I think I need to add this as an action item right now.

00:23:30

I'm not remembering this.

00:23:31

So remind me the what you're talking about here.

00:23:34

Okay.

00:23:35

So there's a section where he says, do you want to be helped, hugged or heard?

00:23:41

So essentially the help, that's the what's this about conversation?

00:23:46

Hugged, that's the how do we feel conversation and heard, that's the who are we conversation.

00:23:53

And I feel like this, I mean, my wife and I, a lot of conversations that we have, we

00:23:58

definitely fall into this stereotype where like she's telling me something and I'm immediately

00:24:05

going into what we got to fix this.

00:24:07

And she's like, no, I just want to tell you.

00:24:10

So when he explained it this way, I was like, Oh, I go into my default is the do you want

00:24:16

to be helped conversation when maybe she's asking that she wants to be hugged or heard.

00:24:22

Instead, like acknowledge the emotions or just acknowledge that like this is how you're feeling

00:24:28

about something.

00:24:30

So I feel like that phrase, like that single sentence could kind of be a, that could be

00:24:38

really powerful.

00:24:39

It's like, okay, so just let's align here.

00:24:41

What kind of conversation are we, we having?

00:24:44

And essentially like she doesn't have to do anything.

00:24:46

It's on me.

00:24:47

Like, do you want to be helped, hugged or heard?

00:24:49

If we have the shared definitions of what these things are, then like that could maybe

00:24:55

make streamline the communication a little bit.

00:24:58

And there are other places that you could use that obviously, but that's the one that

00:25:02

comes to mind in day to day life for me.

00:25:05

Yeah.

00:25:06

So, so one of the questions I have is, do you do this, Mike, like do you try to, and

00:25:11

when I say this, I mean, do you try to like synchronize with the people you're, you're

00:25:17

interacting with?

00:25:19

And I mean it like the way he describes it, right?

00:25:21

Like so super, super communicators know how to evoke synchronization by encouraging people

00:25:25

to match how they are communicating, right?

00:25:27

Like so basically, and then he unpacks like kind of how to do that.

00:25:31

Do you actively try to do this reflecting on conversations you have with people and,

00:25:35

you know, the way you approach a conversation?

00:25:39

I don't think I actively do this, but I totally do this.

00:25:44

Okay.

00:25:45

And I do it more, I feel in conversations with people that I don't have a real strong

00:25:56

bond or connection with.

00:25:58

I feel like the people that I'm closest with, I don't, and I'm just like talking out loud.

00:26:04

I'm not consciously choosing this, but it's almost like with them, I don't have to be

00:26:08

on my guard.

00:26:09

I don't have to work so hard.

00:26:11

Like I know they just accept me, so there isn't the necessity to create the connection.

00:26:18

But if it's somebody that like, I don't want it to be socially awkward or whatever, then

00:26:23

I find myself, like he talked about these, these cues where you'll try to, if someone

00:26:29

says something funny, you may laugh a little bit.

00:26:33

I do that all the time.

00:26:36

And then I have to catch myself as like, wait a second, like I don't actually think that's

00:26:40

funny.

00:26:41

Why am I doing this?

00:26:42

Because they, I'm projecting that they are trying to make a joke and I'm trying to connect

00:26:47

with them.

00:26:48

Yeah.

00:26:49

Right.

00:26:50

So.

00:26:51

Yeah.

00:26:52

Because I, the reason I asked the question is because I think I do some of these things,

00:26:56

but I don't think I intentionally do them.

00:26:59

And that was surprising to me.

00:27:01

It's like, it's not like I sit down and I think, oh, well, right now I'm going to act

00:27:06

at or ask active questions or, you know, intentionally try to dig deeper into this topic.

00:27:10

But I do that, like I, especially when I'm feeling, and I think I do it out of more of

00:27:15

a silence bothers me.

00:27:18

So therefore, like if, if you and I are talking and I don't know you very well, I'll ask you

00:27:22

a bunch of questions because I don't want it to be uncomfortable in a way for me to

00:27:26

make it not uncomfortable was to ask you a bunch of questions because then I feel like

00:27:29

somebody's moving the conversation for you.

00:27:31

Yeah.

00:27:32

But he would say it's like for a different, different area.

00:27:33

So I think we saw it on, we might be digressing a little bit.

00:27:36

So you may want to move us.

00:27:37

Or you want to see me?

00:27:38

No.

00:27:39

I like the conversation though.

00:27:42

It does kind of lead into the what's this really about conversation.

00:27:49

So let's, let's go there because the, what's this really about conversation is a negotiation.

00:27:55

He talks about that's the chapter title and recognizing that every conversation is a negotiation.

00:28:04

I feel like is one of the big takeaways.

00:28:08

But then the other thing that really stands out to me from this section is that two kinds

00:28:13

of logic exists side by side in our brain.

00:28:16

And this is kind of to the, the point you were just talking about, I feel like we're

00:28:20

constantly trying to find the balance here when we are in a conversation.

00:28:25

The logic of costs and benefits.

00:28:27

So is this a practical discussion?

00:28:30

And in that, if that's the case, then we tend to lean into data and reasoning.

00:28:34

The other one is the logic of similarities.

00:28:36

Is this an empathetic discussion where we lean into stories and compassion?

00:28:41

By the way, as part of the, the prologue, I think it was, that that's where he shared

00:28:46

the story about the, the jury.

00:28:49

And he walks through the masterful job that the Marquette University professor, because

00:28:56

there's like very adamant people on both sides and he's trying to like get out of there as

00:29:01

quickly as he can.

00:29:02

So he, he practices all of the things that he, that Charles Duhig is talking about in these

00:29:07

book, in this book to make everybody feel heard and create a limit because they have

00:29:11

to all agree.

00:29:12

So he's got to change somebody's mind essentially.

00:29:14

And it's not this conversation or this, um, practical, you know, data and reasoning piece.

00:29:22

That is what aligns people.

00:29:24

So the, every conversation being a negotiation and you know, what is this, this really about,

00:29:30

uh, I think that what I'm my, my takeaway from this is that it's never just one of these

00:29:38

things.

00:29:39

There's always a balance and the really good business meetings that I've been a part of.

00:29:45

You've got to be able to go back and forth between these.

00:29:47

Yeah.

00:29:48

If it's kind of weird to me, like I wish you could just, let's talk about the facts.

00:29:53

Let's make the decisions based on the data, but literally every organization I've been

00:29:57

a part of, they say like, oh yeah, well, we're going to take the emotional piece out of

00:30:01

it and nobody can.

00:30:02

Yeah, nobody can.

00:30:03

Nobody can.

00:30:04

Nobody can.

00:30:05

He hits that really hard about how like basically emotion is the underpinning of everything.

00:30:10

Um, and I don't remember if it's in this chapter or if it's in a different chapter, but I

00:30:13

mean, he, he hits that really hard.

00:30:15

One of the things, so this is the robot in me, right?

00:30:18

I'll say it that way.

00:30:19

Like I want to walk into every conversation.

00:30:21

I want to say what is the purpose of this conversation, right?

00:30:24

Like, let's figure that out right now before we even move on.

00:30:27

So it's like, if we're trying to make a decision, let's say we're trying to make a decision

00:30:30

right now.

00:30:31

If you just want to be heard, tell me that right now.

00:30:34

That way I know coming into this, like, but you can't do that.

00:30:37

And like I wish you could because like it makes the conversation so robotic, but like

00:30:41

man, if we could walk with like a sign on the front of us that says this conversation

00:30:47

is about deciding what I want to eat for breakfast.

00:30:50

And it's like, or this conversation is just wanting you to know that I'm hungry.

00:30:53

Like, yeah, like I wish my kids could do this when they came downstairs.

00:30:57

I feel like it would ease so much of the stuff.

00:30:59

So you had said about how it's, it's like a really important, I think this concept is

00:31:05

really important, this negotiation concept.

00:31:07

I agree with you completely.

00:31:08

Like I think this is the, this is one where I wish I could make it more straightforward.

00:31:15

I don't think I can.

00:31:16

So I have to figure out how to in a nuanced way, make it more, make it more relevant, make

00:31:23

it more front end of every conversation.

00:31:26

And I mean, well, I know we weren't going to really hit the guide all that much, but

00:31:29

he does give four steps for this, right?

00:31:31

So we'll one pack those for a second.

00:31:33

So he says prep for the conversation, ask open ended questions, notice the clues and

00:31:37

then experiment with new items or new topics as a way to figure out, well, what are we

00:31:43

really talking about here?

00:31:44

Right.

00:31:45

Because I've been in so many conversations where you realize 20 minutes into the meeting,

00:31:49

and it's like, oh, this has nothing to do with what I thought it was, what I thought

00:31:56

we were talking about.

00:31:57

You really want this other thing out of this conversation.

00:31:59

And now we can, we can go from there.

00:32:01

Yeah.

00:32:02

I'm glad you called out the four ways we share our goals and ask what others are seeking.

00:32:06

That's the, the part from a guide to using these ideas, part two.

00:32:10

Because I have in my mind map file here, those four different steps.

00:32:14

And then the questions that he gives underneath those, which I think are all really good.

00:32:19

So if you're just going into this book and you want like the Blinkist version and how

00:32:25

do I like start deploying this right away, you just read those sections.

00:32:28

It's like five to 10 pages at the end of the end of the section.

00:32:32

And like, here's what you use.

00:32:34

And those, those lists of questions, I feel like those are great resources.

00:32:36

That's why I captured them all into my, my, my map file.

00:32:39

But I could definitely see myself going back and looking at those and using those.

00:32:45

And it's kind of interesting because like you have an agenda by using those questions,

00:32:50

but it's in service of the other person.

00:32:52

So it doesn't feel manipulative because the big takeaway for me from this section, you

00:32:59

know, we talked about every conversation as a negotiation, but negotiation isn't a battle.

00:33:04

It's an act of creativity, he says.

00:33:06

And the best negotiators don't focus on getting the biggest piece of the pie.

00:33:10

They make the pie bigger.

00:33:12

Make the pie bigger.

00:33:13

And I, when I read that, like, that makes sense.

00:33:17

I want to do that.

00:33:18

And immediately I felt regret for like all these flashbacks came to mind of like conversations

00:33:25

and arguments with the, the family business, because we're trying to make this decision,

00:33:29

you know, and it's really clear in my mind, like this is the, the way to go.

00:33:32

Like one that comes to mind is, um, when I was working with family business, I was involved

00:33:37

with the development team.

00:33:40

And we were trying to decide we're moving from like installable software to an online program.

00:33:46

And the easy way to do it is just, well, just build it in Flash.

00:33:49

It was still going to be like millions of dollars to move everything over, but that was

00:33:53

the, the easy way.

00:33:55

And I was like, no, this, this iPod stuff and the iPad, like this is a big deal for special

00:34:01

education and Flash is never going to run on this.

00:34:04

Like we got to do it in web standards, HTML, CSS.

00:34:11

And there were lots of, shall we say, spicy conversations.

00:34:17

And I think, you know, if you're trying to choose somebody who was right, technically

00:34:23

I was right.

00:34:25

Flash was not a good long term investment there.

00:34:30

But I also recognize on my perspective going, you know, those conversations was like we

00:34:34

have to make the right decision.

00:34:36

And like I had to fight for the right decision.

00:34:38

And if I would have had this mindset, I'm sure there were ways where that was, those

00:34:43

conversations could have gone a lot smoother because I could have still gotten what I wanted.

00:34:50

You know, let's build this using new web technologies and allowed other people to get

00:34:55

some wins as well.

00:34:56

But that just wasn't my mindset back.

00:34:58

But you, I understand that completely.

00:35:02

I've been in many of those conversations where you look back on it and you're like, man,

00:35:07

I just, that one wasn't, wasn't the way it could have gone, right?

00:35:10

You know, it could have gone in a little bit of a different way.

00:35:12

I think, so this, he introduces a concept here called back channeling as well, or an

00:35:17

idea called back channeling, which I had not heard it referred to this as before, but

00:35:20

I do this all the time.

00:35:22

And I think this is what makes internet communication somewhat challenging.

00:35:27

And if you've ever been on a call where there's lag on the, the zoom call or Skype or whatever

00:35:33

it is, man, it really throws off the conversation because you can't get that feedback.

00:35:39

The, uh, huh, that's interesting.

00:35:41

The, wow, like I never had any idea, but this is also an area, right?

00:35:45

To let people, you know, into the, into the podcasting world.

00:35:49

This is an area where I struggle with podcasting because like, I want to say that when you're

00:35:54

a sponsor, like when you're saying something, I would be like, uh, yeah, great, right.

00:35:57

But from an editor standpoint, man, it's terrible.

00:36:01

Like you, you don't want the other person adding in these little things because if you

00:36:05

get your time sync off slightly, you get those things can get messed up.

00:36:09

But it's so important to the conversation that like, I, I just, I couldn't help but

00:36:14

think of that like, Oh, back channeling.

00:36:16

Is it better in the conversation between Mike and I for me to throw in those, uh, huh,

00:36:21

that interesting and risk talking over him or is it better to just be quiet and just

00:36:26

nod so he can see the, the, the nonverbal back channel, but at the same time, there's

00:36:31

no, you know, there's no there.

00:36:33

And then I think it feels somewhat artificial, right?

00:36:34

To the, to the listener.

00:36:36

If you don't ever hear from the other person and there's like a two minute, two and a half

00:36:39

minute, you know, diatribe from the other, it's like, man, weren't, did the other person

00:36:43

fall asleep?

00:36:44

Like where'd they go?

00:36:45

But it really has to do with editing.

00:36:46

That's like, that's the major driver of it.

00:36:48

Yeah.

00:36:49

So I'm glad you, you brought that up because I was going to call that out to back channeling,

00:36:54

which is making noises as you listen to indicate that you're following along.

00:36:57

And you're right.

00:36:58

Like from an editing perspective, that can be a nightmare.

00:37:00

So this is one of the areas where you have to learn this, um, as you, you podcast, I

00:37:09

feel, and I probably air a little bit too much on the side of, I do this frequently.

00:37:15

When you're listening to a podcast, I mean, it kind of depends on the podcast, I guess,

00:37:21

but like I'm thinking about Mac power users as an example.

00:37:25

David and Steven do a really good job.

00:37:27

And maybe they, they edit this, uh, to this point, but they almost never interrupt people,

00:37:34

right?

00:37:35

Never interrupt each other.

00:37:36

But I feel like, uh, the standard approach to this is for a podcaster.

00:37:43

And you are going to jump in with something.

00:37:46

You just jump in all the way and you just say it.

00:37:50

And that feels weird too, because then you at least have, if you got separate tracks,

00:37:55

the editor can splice it together and make it sound like it was cleaner than it was.

00:38:00

But it's when you start to jump in and the other, oh, go ahead.

00:38:05

Like that's the, the really messy stuff from an editing perspective, having done editing

00:38:09

myself.

00:38:10

Yeah.

00:38:11

I agree.

00:38:12

But to learn, uh, I know Jason Snell has talked about that with the incomparable podcast that

00:38:17

he does with like the 12 different people, because they're always talking over each

00:38:20

other.

00:38:21

And he's, I forget where I heard him talk about it, but basically like people just sled it

00:38:26

rip and then it's up to him and the edit to like clean it all up.

00:38:28

Yeah.

00:38:29

Sounds like so much work.

00:38:31

Yep.

00:38:32

I agree.

00:38:33

Yeah.

00:38:34

So where's that, where's that sweet spot?

00:38:36

Uh, let's go to the next section, which is the, how do we feel conversation?

00:38:45

And this one has a couple different chapters, a couple different models.

00:38:50

There's a lot in here, basically.

00:38:51

So let me just run down the chapters quick.

00:38:53

Chapter three, the listening cure, chapter four, how do you hear emotions?

00:38:58

No one says aloud.

00:38:59

Chapter five connecting amid conflict.

00:39:02

And then again, the guide to using these ideas.

00:39:05

Now the listening cure, let's start there.

00:39:08

And we can just kind of talk about these ideas together.

00:39:11

We don't have to go chapter by chapter, but I want to start with this first one, because

00:39:15

right at the beginning of this chapter, he uses a, a phrase here, which I think ties

00:39:21

back to the comment you made about the different types of conversations, like a sales conversation.

00:39:26

And do you have like conversations that span these different categories?

00:39:30

I think this is where the answer is.

00:39:32

Yes.

00:39:33

There often comes a moment when you have to decide, will I allow this conversation to

00:39:39

turn emotional?

00:39:41

So that to me communicates that a conversation could have ebbs and flows or it could evolve

00:39:48

as it as you would go through it.

00:39:50

And maybe if you were to plot these out, you've got different levels, right?

00:39:55

And so the very base level is the, what's the decision to be made here?

00:40:00

But then if you're going to go deeper or higher, you know, depending how you organize these

00:40:04

different levels, I guess, the next place that you could go is to this emotional level.

00:40:11

And he talks about how emotions are already influencing your conversations.

00:40:15

They influence everything that we say in here, which is kind of interesting.

00:40:20

And this reminded me of, there's a book that we covered for book or I'm a while back called

00:40:26

"Leminal Thinking" and I will probably refer to this book in every episode that we do

00:40:32

from this from today forward.

00:40:34

Like I bring it up all the time because it was so impactful for me because he has this

00:40:41

like, this diagram where you've got at the bottom level, like everything that's knowable.

00:40:47

And then you've got your experience on top of that.

00:40:50

And then your experience, really, there's only like a small percentage of the information

00:40:54

that comes in into your senses that you can actually pay attention to.

00:40:58

And on top of that, you build all your judgments, all your beliefs and you surround yourself

00:41:03

with people who look, talk and act just like you do.

00:41:08

So you have this bubble belief that reinforces like all these preconceived notions about

00:41:12

how things are.

00:41:13

But the takeaway from that book is essentially we need to seek out conversations with people

00:41:18

who have different perspectives.

00:41:21

So if you're seeking out conversations, people have different perspectives, I can guarantee

00:41:25

you that things are going to get emotional.

00:41:27

Yes.

00:41:28

Yes.

00:41:29

Especially, you know, when you attach your identity, which is the next level here, so

00:41:33

we won't go there quite yet, but like that's really at the root of a lot of this stuff

00:41:37

too.

00:41:38

It's like, why do I have emotions tied to this?

00:41:40

Because I see myself a specific way.

00:41:43

And so if you have different thoughts about things that can feel like an attack on myself,

00:41:50

it can make me feel uncomfortable.

00:41:53

It can make me feel threatened.

00:41:56

And when you're talking about that, I mean, if you're trying to get to any level of depth

00:42:03

with the conversation, it's like, well, yeah, obviously, of course, you've got to talk about

00:42:07

that stuff.

00:42:08

You can't just let it like fester in the background.

00:42:12

One of the things I love from this section, by the way, is the fast friends method that

00:42:17

he mentioned.

00:42:18

Okay, so these are 36 questions that they use to like get people from total strangers to

00:42:26

I'm going to invite you to my wedding, essentially.

00:42:30

I'll let you kind of talk about that.

00:42:32

I see you pumping your fist about the fast friends method.

00:42:36

Yeah.

00:42:37

So I was super, super jazzed about this because he starts going through this and I'm like,

00:42:43

man, I want to use these.

00:42:45

Like I really want to use these.

00:42:46

I want to figure out, is this does this work?

00:42:50

So what he says by these is there are 36 questions that encourage people to get vulnerable, right?

00:42:57

So make that emotional connection.

00:43:00

It ties into the matching principle.

00:43:01

It ties into reciprocity and then like acknowledging someone's emotions and then showing them that

00:43:07

you care from it and that it was like effective and increasing closeness.

00:43:13

And if you look this up, there's a bunch of different things that you'll find online

00:43:19

if you just do a Google search.

00:43:20

But it actually has seemed to change names somewhat to 36 questions for increasing closeness

00:43:27

of what it is now.

00:43:30

But I want to go through these with someone, right?

00:43:33

Like I just want to see what they're like and see because the way he sells it, he sells

00:43:38

it so well in the story that he tells and like in how effective it was that I'm just

00:43:43

like, man, if this thing works, that would be amazing.

00:43:46

So it seeds these quote unquote right questions that allow people to get vulnerable that allow

00:43:52

this emotional contagion thing to happen, which allows this connection to happen.

00:43:58

And this was really, really interesting to me.

00:44:00

And I almost want to like force people to go through this and just see if it works effectively.

00:44:05

But that could be, people may not like me for quote unquote forcing them to do that.

00:44:11

But if I was the manager of somebody or like a group of people, I'd be like, okay, hey,

00:44:14

we're going to do this activity today where I'm going to put you in pairs and we're going

00:44:17

to go through these 36 questions.

00:44:20

Yeah.

00:44:21

Well, I was reading this book on the airplane and I found the list in the appendix.

00:44:27

So I jotted them all down in my mind map.

00:44:30

I also would like to do that.

00:44:31

So I think we just found our first member special.

00:44:33

Nice.

00:44:34

That's amazing.

00:44:35

Yes.

00:44:36

Yes.

00:44:37

Yes.

00:44:38

Yes.

00:44:39

Yeah, that's that's pretty cool.

00:44:40

And I don't think you necessarily need these questions, but it they're they are very well

00:44:48

done questions.

00:44:49

One of the things that kind of stands out to me from that whole section is that you

00:44:54

can create emotional connection by asking deep questions and reciprocating vulnerability.

00:45:00

This is something that I do when I am with a group of people that I'm not super close

00:45:08

with.

00:45:09

I'm the guy who when we are at dinner, I'll just throw out a random deep question and

00:45:14

wait for somebody to answer it.

00:45:17

And everyone's like, wait, I don't know you.

00:45:19

Why are you asking me this?

00:45:20

And just like sit there until we create like really meaningful conversation.

00:45:26

Give me an example of one of these questions.

00:45:29

Well, okay.

00:45:31

So one that comes to mind is there's this conference that we go to for the men's group,

00:45:36

my church, over here.

00:45:39

And after the evening session, we go to this restaurant.

00:45:44

And there was a bunch of other people who were kind of like in a somewhat related group

00:45:50

to us, but not really from the conference, we kind of know who they are, but like we

00:45:54

just met them.

00:45:56

It's not like we're best friends.

00:45:58

We've hung out together outside of this setting ever.

00:46:02

So we sit down and one of the things the speaker is talking about is like related to purpose

00:46:10

and vision and values.

00:46:12

So like I'm the life-themed guy, right?

00:46:14

Let's just jump right in there.

00:46:16

So like, hey, so this guy was talking about this, you know, what are what's your personal

00:46:20

core values or that's not exactly what it was.

00:46:23

But I remember like it was something really like, who are you?

00:46:27

You know, what's important to you sort of a thing.

00:46:29

And the guy I was asking to is just like, you know, dear in the headlights, like you're

00:46:34

really asking me this.

00:46:37

But you know, I love that kind of stuff because once you get over the initial awkwardness,

00:46:43

it's meaningful.

00:46:45

And I enjoy having those conversations even as an introvert.

00:46:49

Like that's not really my scene.

00:46:51

I prefer not to be there doing that.

00:46:55

But it's almost like a defense mechanism like, oh, if I have to do this, like let's at least

00:47:00

get something out of it.

00:47:01

Sounds terrible, but that's kind of it.

00:47:03

No, no, no, no.

00:47:04

That makes total sense.

00:47:05

So my version of this, the reason why I put you on the spot and I asked you this first

00:47:08

is because my version of this is it's a it's like a semi deep question.

00:47:13

So the one I like to do, it would be something along the lines of, okay, you just won the

00:47:17

lottery.

00:47:19

That's the first thing you buy and why.

00:47:21

That's a good one.

00:47:22

Yeah.

00:47:23

Because it's like, it's still fun, but it's it gets like deeper and you can still learn

00:47:28

about people's values there, right?

00:47:30

Like in terms of like how they how they feel about certain things or, you know, okay,

00:47:34

you're on the first mission to Mars.

00:47:35

You know, what are you're allowed to take two books?

00:47:37

What are the two books you take and why and why do you, you know, why why'd you pick those

00:47:41

two?

00:47:43

So it's like mine is, but I just like to be goofy.

00:47:47

So that's half the reason why I like to do it is because I like to hear what people say

00:47:50

and be like, yeah, that book was terrible.

00:47:53

I would not take that book.

00:47:54

You know, yeah, that's so I've heard different versions of questions kind of like that.

00:48:00

I feel like yours is kind of in the middle between like the super serious ones, which

00:48:02

are usually the ones that I will will lean towards.

00:48:06

And then there's also like a whole group of just goofy ones.

00:48:09

Like if you I don't know, it's like that you give two extremes and like if you had to

00:48:15

pick one or the other, which one would you pick?

00:48:18

Like I hate those.

00:48:20

If you could only eat one type of pizza for the rest of your life, would you, you know,

00:48:23

pepperoni or something?

00:48:24

It's like, it's like shot.

00:48:25

Why?

00:48:26

Yeah.

00:48:27

Oh man.

00:48:28

Okay.

00:48:29

So another part of this, this chapter I like.

00:48:31

So we're again, we're getting to how do we, how do we get to the fuel conversation or

00:48:36

the emotional thing?

00:48:37

So he talks about the good ways to do this and the kind of not so good ways to do this.

00:48:41

So questions kind of governs the whole thing, but he says about this perspective taking.

00:48:47

So when we try to see a situation from the other person's perspective and then show them

00:48:50

we empathize, he said, that's not the best way to connect.

00:48:53

I tend to do that a lot.

00:48:55

So I try to like see it from their perspective and then emphasize empathize with them and

00:48:59

sometimes it hits and sometimes it misses.

00:49:01

So this resonated with me in terms of, yeah, that doesn't always work.

00:49:05

The next one he would say is perspective getting.

00:49:08

So asking people to describe their values, their beliefs, their feelings.

00:49:12

And he said, it's a better way to get that real understanding.

00:49:15

He introduced the concept of emotional contagion, which I had never heard before, but that's

00:49:21

synchronizing your own emotions with the emotions that is being expressed around you.

00:49:28

So how do I synchronize those things here?

00:49:31

Now one of the questions I have for you, Michael, in your mind map, do you have, do you have

00:49:34

emotional contagion called out?

00:49:36

I do, yeah, it helps us bond, but it must be triggered by something and then I've got

00:49:39

the little wheel that he's got there.

00:49:43

So okay, I don't have any follow up to emotional contagion.

00:49:48

All I have is like the definition.

00:49:50

Did he give any examples of like what this looks like in practice?

00:49:56

I don't think so.

00:50:00

But kind of I think in the next couple chapters, because really the thing, the emotional contagion

00:50:09

is sort of a weird term.

00:50:13

In the next chapter, he talks about the NASA hiring approach and how like the guy intentionally

00:50:23

spills his papers when he walks in to see how people are going to respond and essentially

00:50:28

what he's describing there, I would frame it as they used to hire for the hard skills

00:50:33

and now they're hiring for the soft skills.

00:50:36

So another term there is emotional intelligence.

00:50:40

And that I've got a bunch of history with the family business is kind of weird to hear

00:50:45

him kind of talk around that, but not really label it specifically.

00:50:50

So when he's talking about emotional contagion and then that leads to the connection, I feel

00:50:56

like that is emotional intelligence, which has many more facets than the few limited

00:51:03

ones that he describes.

00:51:06

And so this is the place where I feel like you see the fact that he's not very far along

00:51:13

in this journey.

00:51:15

That feels like a real logical next step for me, which unlocks a whole nother level of

00:51:20

understanding in terms of how these conversations fit together.

00:51:26

And I don't think it was intentional that like, okay, I got enough for my book.

00:51:31

So 60,000 words that ship this thing, but it does show me that like you are, you haven't

00:51:40

gone deep enough yet.

00:51:42

And maybe, you know, if you fully understood emotional intelligence, he interviewed Daniel

00:51:47

Goldman and just like really comprehended the stuff he would have chosen to ignore it

00:51:51

anyways, because like the things that he talks about, how they fit together, I feel like

00:51:56

that is very straightforward and very understandable.

00:51:59

You don't want to complicate things to the lower people just don't, they can't grok it

00:52:03

anymore.

00:52:04

Maybe emotional intelligence does do that.

00:52:06

But this is like the spot where it's like, if you want to go deeper, this is the next

00:52:11

thing.

00:52:12

Yeah.

00:52:13

And I don't really blame him for that.

00:52:18

I see this all the time, actually, people like start to discover emotional intelligence.

00:52:24

They don't really know that it's emotional intelligence.

00:52:26

And so like they don't make the connection there, but that's what empathy is emotional

00:52:33

intelligence.

00:52:34

And that's the section that we're in is like the whole emotional side of it.

00:52:38

So really the conversations, you know, if I were to take a stab at like redoing the structure

00:52:43

of this book in this section for the emotional conversations, you've really got like two

00:52:47

different types of conversations that happen in emotional intelligence.

00:52:53

You've got in truck personal communication, which is kind of the conversation that you're

00:52:58

having with yourself.

00:53:00

What are the stories that you're telling yourself?

00:53:03

And that's where like positive self talk comes in and stuff like that.

00:53:06

Because if you don't control that, you can just believe the story that your brain is

00:53:11

telling you, you're a washed up pathetic loser and you're never going to do anything

00:53:14

with your life.

00:53:15

Like that's the way my voice talks if I don't don't deal with it.

00:53:19

And then there's interpersonal, which is really what he's talking about in this book where

00:53:22

you're like you're managing all this stuff with with other people.

00:53:26

I do think that when you dig into like emotional intelligence, you've got different skills,

00:53:32

like you mentioned sales earlier with the emotional intelligence product that the, I

00:53:37

mean, my dad developed this product with the family business that's got like 120 doctoral

00:53:42

level papers and books written on it, eight and a half million uses like the most research

00:53:47

validated instrument in the world.

00:53:49

So like he knows this stuff inside and out.

00:53:52

And one of the scales I remember when I was growing up was like that one's kind of weird.

00:53:56

It's called sales orientation.

00:53:58

Essentially it's leadership.

00:53:59

Like the leadership is convincing people that you can get them where they want to go.

00:54:05

And so I'll have conversations with people be like, oh, I don't really like being salesy.

00:54:09

Well you sold your marriage.

00:54:10

So you sold yourself at least once.

00:54:12

Right.

00:54:13

So that whole aspect to it.

00:54:15

And then there's a whole bunch of other scales, you know, empathy is a real important one.

00:54:21

And I when I have these conversations about this stuff or this stuff pops up on my radar,

00:54:27

I always want to go deeper and figure out how these pieces fit together.

00:54:32

And that is not what you're going to get with this particular book.

00:54:35

But I think that maybe is okay.

00:54:37

Yeah.

00:54:38

So I think part of the reason why you don't get that as much as you want to is because

00:54:43

of the amount of work it's going to take to get to get there.

00:54:46

Like you're going to have to unpack a lot of different stuff.

00:54:48

You know, you'd mentioned the papers and you mentioned all the different scales and all

00:54:52

of that.

00:54:53

And I think sometimes that isn't the crux.

00:54:55

So therefore it's going to take too much time.

00:54:58

So we hit the level that we can, which for you is like skip it a stone, you know, off

00:55:03

the top of a pond.

00:55:04

You want to dig in and see what's underneath that water.

00:55:07

But it skips too much.

00:55:09

Yeah.

00:55:10

One of the things I liked about this, so we're in chapter four.

00:55:13

But one of the things I liked about the piece of emotional intelligence he did hit is this

00:55:17

mood energy.

00:55:19

And this lets me hit on a point that I like what he does in this book in terms of he

00:55:25

summarizes in the guides, which we've already talked about.

00:55:29

But he also summarizes in the like graphics and tables and different things.

00:55:35

And I just think it's an effective way to give the same information, but in a different

00:55:40

form.

00:55:41

So you get to see it again, but you get to see maybe connections through it.

00:55:44

So in this one, he's got energy on the y axis.

00:55:46

He's got mood on the x axis.

00:55:48

And then there's high and low and positive and negative, of course, respectively for

00:55:51

those.

00:55:52

And then he tells you like, okay, well, this is upbeat and this is angry.

00:55:55

And this is frustrated and whatever it is.

00:55:58

And I like that it stood out to me because if you've ever been in one of these conversations

00:56:03

where you're, let's say, low energy, but you're positive, you're just not super happy that

00:56:10

day.

00:56:11

So everything's fine.

00:56:12

Like here I am, but you get somebody that's like super high energy, super positive and

00:56:16

you're just like, hold on.

00:56:18

You're like, whoa, speaker is too high right now.

00:56:21

You got to calm down a little bit.

00:56:23

And I've found that there's been multiple times in my life where it's just, I want to just

00:56:27

like reach over and just be like, can you please just turn it down?

00:56:31

Like, like turn to a seven.

00:56:33

You're, you're at 11 right now.

00:56:34

Like I need you, I need you at a seven.

00:56:36

So seeing it go wrong really like triggers that whole like, oh, wow, like, yes, this

00:56:42

is an important aspect to kind of match that energy and mood level with the people, not

00:56:47

in an artificial way, but in a way that like at least you're not out in, you know, left

00:56:52

field in their, you know, they're hanging out there going, wait, what are you doing

00:56:55

right now?

00:56:56

You're not even, you know, part of this context.

00:56:58

So yeah.

00:56:59

All right.

00:57:00

Should we go to the last one?

00:57:03

Yep.

00:57:04

Okay.

00:57:05

So the last type of conversation is the, who are we conversation?

00:57:09

There's a couple chapters here.

00:57:12

And this one maybe is the most uncomfortable section in the book because you can't really

00:57:21

talk about this without acknowledging some pretty sensitive issues.

00:57:29

Like he opens this whole section with a story about a doctor who is trying to convince people

00:57:36

with facts and figures that vaccines are safe.

00:57:40

And he's realizing that it's having the opposite effect and he's like, what the heck?

00:57:45

Yep.

00:57:46

Then they talk about how to have conversations between people of different types of groups.

00:57:52

Like there's a mom who was in a school shooting and then gets a text from her kid who is involved

00:58:00

in a school shooting, like having a conversation through this experiment with somebody who

00:58:06

is a complete second amendment, like owns multiple guns, come at me, bro.

00:58:13

Like I was uncomfortable just hearing about these scenarios.

00:58:18

Race is another one that comes into play here.

00:58:21

And I do think that the fact that it's uncomfortable is probably a good thing.

00:58:25

I feel like these conversations do need to happen.

00:58:31

And I don't think there's a whole lot here though in terms of like here's exactly how

00:58:35

to do it.

00:58:36

I think like if there's one section where you really can't just like follow a blueprint,

00:58:40

it's probably this one about the identity conversation.

00:58:44

Although chapter seven is pretty good.

00:58:46

How do we make the hardest conversations safer?

00:58:48

So there are some things here which you can kind of deploy tactically, but there's no

00:58:52

simple just like follow the steps.

00:58:55

That being said, this is the natural place where like the conversation around communication

00:59:01

is going to end up.

00:59:03

Because as you're talking about decisions to be made and emotions get evolved, eventually

00:59:07

those emotions are rooted in these identities that people have.

00:59:13

So man, I don't even know where to start with this one.

00:59:19

I guess he's got a couple steps for a successful where we conversation where you try to draw

00:59:24

out your conversation partners, multiple identities.

00:59:26

So I guess that's one thing is that you have multiple identities.

00:59:31

Maybe they are firmly established.

00:59:32

Maybe they're just something that you've picked up along the way you didn't even think about.

00:59:36

But like drawing that out of the person that you're talking to, trying to make sure everyone

00:59:40

is on equal footing and looking for social similarities that already exist.

00:59:44

I feel like that's very general and vague, but seems like a very good idea.

00:59:49

Look for the things that you have in common.

00:59:53

Acknowledge the things that are difficult for other people.

00:59:57

And then there are different steps that they go through throughout here where the people

01:00:05

who were on completely opposite sides, when they were able to dig into the identities and

01:00:12

figure out what made the other person uncomfortable about certain things or why they held certain

01:00:18

views.

01:00:19

And they didn't just listen with the intention of, "I'm going to rebut this and share facts

01:00:23

and figures, but I'm going to make them feel heard," that there was a level of connection

01:00:27

that was made even with people who were on completely opposite ends of the spectrum.

01:00:33

I mean, that's natural and it's important, but it also is not easy to do in the culture

01:00:42

that we find ourselves in.

01:00:43

They talk about how they had these people together for the study and they made these

01:00:48

connections and then 45 minutes after the study was over, they're back on Facebook sharing

01:00:53

posts and they're back into their old ways.

01:00:56

So recognizing that there are certain places where these identity conversations should be

01:01:02

held.

01:01:03

It should be face to face.

01:01:04

It should be in person.

01:01:06

And essentially, my big takeaway from this is don't argue on the internet.

01:01:11

So that's interesting.

01:01:12

I was going to bring up that point too.

01:01:13

I think there is a hard divide between, is this digital communication or is this face

01:01:18

to face communication?

01:01:20

And I think that could have been made a lot stronger here.

01:01:23

That being said, I think this stuff applies across the board.

01:01:27

And one of the things where I think it happens in what we might consider the throwaway comments,

01:01:34

I think a lot.

01:01:36

So I will start a sentence with, well, you know, as a blah, right?

01:01:42

And like, and whatever that is, well, now I'm either in grouping you or I'm out grouping

01:01:47

you, right?

01:01:48

Either one of you're either in with me or you're somewhere else or, you know, I know you're

01:01:53

a, right?

01:01:54

And you like project onto them what their identity is in that situation when really in

01:02:00

the context of the conversation that we're having or the conflict, maybe it maybe is,

01:02:04

they're not thinking about themselves in that way at all.

01:02:06

Like they're approaching it from a completely different perspective.

01:02:09

So one of the ones that, you know, is most relevant right now because we have little

01:02:14

kids, you know, it would be like, well, as a parent, you should.

01:02:17

And it's like, well, hold on.

01:02:18

Like as soon as you say as a parent, you're projecting the way you think about parenting

01:02:23

on the way these, this other person thinks about parenting and you're either in grouping

01:02:27

them or out grouping them with the parent identity, right?

01:02:30

And then then you get into the as the Christian parent, right?

01:02:34

Like, well, now, okay, hold on.

01:02:36

We just added layer upon layer to that, right?

01:02:39

Which, and I think that is the way I think about this is, man, if I can get rid of or

01:02:46

think intentionally about those throwaway comments, what I think might be throwaway comments,

01:02:52

but they really have a different impact on that receiver.

01:02:56

How does that change things like stereotype through it?

01:02:59

Has that changed the way we approach these conversations?

01:03:01

How does that level the playing field and put us all on the same level?

01:03:04

I think parody would probably be the right word, but that way we can have that have that

01:03:08

conversation.

01:03:10

The last thing I'll say like that I really liked about this chapter that my wife being

01:03:14

a counselor, I've made me think about it, but like motivational interviewing.

01:03:18

So the way it's described is counselors rarely attempt to convince or persuade.

01:03:22

Instead, they, the counselor subtly guides the client, think about and verbally express

01:03:28

their own reasons for or against a change or for or against something.

01:03:33

And I think that's a really good way to approach, especially in a conflict situation.

01:03:38

So therefore, I'm not going to try to convince you of anything, but man, I'm going to ask

01:03:42

you as many questions as I can to try to get you to unpack why you are for a thing and

01:03:48

why you're against a thing, because you're going to then tell me all the stuff that I

01:03:51

would assume if I, if I don't do that.

01:03:53

I'm, I have to, like the only other way to do it is I have to assume.

01:03:56

So then when you start telling me, well, as a right, well, now you said it, not me, like

01:04:01

I didn't put you in any kind of camp, you told me from what perspective you're approaching

01:04:06

this as.

01:04:07

And now I understand you better.

01:04:09

And I say, Oh, well, in this situation, this identity, identity rules, right?

01:04:13

Okay.

01:04:14

Or it's higher than the other ones.

01:04:16

And I can see where that perspective would, would come from.

01:04:19

So I agree with you.

01:04:21

I think this is one of the hardest chapters to work through.

01:04:27

And I think this sits as a fog sounds too ominous, like what, I'm just helping me figure

01:04:33

out.

01:04:34

This is like the air that exists in the room when we're having conversation.

01:04:38

And especially we're having conflicts is like, this is always there.

01:04:41

Yeah.

01:04:42

Just like emotions are always there.

01:04:43

And we always have to think about this stuff.

01:04:44

But I don't think we do it.

01:04:45

I don't think we do it very often.

01:04:47

We just throw away comments too much.

01:04:49

Yeah.

01:04:50

I don't know that I have a metaphor for you, but you're right.

01:04:54

Like this is always there.

01:04:57

And I don't know that you always need to poke it.

01:05:04

A couple of things that stood out to me from this, you were talking about the identity

01:05:08

threat.

01:05:09

And the, that was one of my big takeaways from this is that people are made uncomfortable

01:05:14

when a speaker says something that lumps the listener into a group against their will.

01:05:20

So I don't have an action item associated with that specifically, but I could theoretically

01:05:24

have one that's like, make sure you're conscious.

01:05:27

You're making a conscious effort not to do that.

01:05:30

Because I feel like that against their will is the real important part there.

01:05:34

And you were kind of hitting on that.

01:05:36

If they identify like, this is who I am and why I believe this way, that's totally different

01:05:41

than me projecting it onto people.

01:05:45

Then there is this motivational interviewing, which this is kind of the technique that the

01:05:51

doctor used when having the conversations about people.

01:05:54

And they shared, you know, just one anecdotal from a, one anecdotal story, but there was

01:06:00

somebody who was just like completely anti this particular vaccine.

01:06:07

And he just went into it.

01:06:09

Motivational interviewing, he says, is guiding the client to verbally express their own reasons

01:06:13

for and against change.

01:06:14

So this person was saying, you know, they put all this stuff in it and it's going to

01:06:20

kill me.

01:06:21

Oh, so your health is very important to you, obviously, you know, and just getting him

01:06:26

to talk about like the reasons why he had the stance that he did.

01:06:29

Wasn't trying to convince him.

01:06:31

And then he went back later and realized the guy was still in the office.

01:06:33

He's like, what's up with that guy?

01:06:34

And they're like, Oh, well, he opted to get the vaccine.

01:06:39

So I feel like that's the thing is like, don't force this on anybody.

01:06:44

Let them reach their own conclusions.

01:06:46

The minute that you start trying to force people to do something, that is the path to

01:06:53

misery.

01:06:54

Like, that just sounds, that sounds awful.

01:07:00

Like if that is what your definition of success is based on is being able to convince people

01:07:07

via facts and figures, like to make certain decisions.

01:07:11

Oh, that's just not going to happen.

01:07:14

But like the minute that he was like, okay, I'm not going to change this guy's mind and

01:07:17

just start talking to him, that's when he was actually able to make progress there.

01:07:23

But there are there are times when you do have to draw a line too.

01:07:28

So like one of the stories they tell in this section is about the it wasn't the CEO, somebody

01:07:35

at high up at Netflix though.

01:07:36

Yeah, forget chief, chief marketing officer or something.

01:07:40

I forget what it was.

01:07:41

Yeah.

01:07:42

And Netflix has this culture, which was always like make mistakes fast and say whatever the

01:07:49

heck you're thinking.

01:07:51

And so he used a term that he should not have used and alienated a bunch of people in the

01:07:57

room and that kind of blew things up and they had continual conversations.

01:08:01

Eventually he gets fired.

01:08:03

They hire somebody else to come in and like fix things.

01:08:07

But there's online.

01:08:09

There's this Netflix culture deck, which I need to find.

01:08:12

Yes, because that's one of my actions.

01:08:13

I want to go through this.

01:08:15

I want to see what's actually in there and I want to take a look at the changes that

01:08:19

were made there because the company culture stuff is interesting to me.

01:08:22

That was one of the things that I worked on at the day job.

01:08:27

One of the things you really tried to dial in was like, how do we actually live out these

01:08:32

values on a group scale?

01:08:36

And I think there are certain things that you can do to make them more tangible.

01:08:42

And we made some progress in that particular area.

01:08:44

But the big takeaway is just because you say something is a value doesn't mean that automatically

01:08:47

gets lived out.

01:08:49

And you got to think through what are the ways that that value can be used negatively.

01:08:54

And then you gain paint a picture of like, well, this is actually what it looks like

01:08:58

to do this in a positive sense.

01:09:00

Like one of the ones that stands out to me is like radical candor because that's one of

01:09:02

the things I think they talk about in the Netflix culture deck too is like the CEO,

01:09:07

feed Hastings, you could tell him off and tell him he's stupid and this is a dumb decision

01:09:12

and he'll be like, thank you for your feedback.

01:09:17

There's good aspects to that.

01:09:18

And then there's bad aspects to that.

01:09:20

And the bad aspects came out when they all of a sudden found themselves in the situation

01:09:24

where someone was using words that they shouldn't in this meeting.

01:09:30

And it wasn't like they were saying it about the people in the meeting, but just like you

01:09:34

don't use that word.

01:09:37

So it's really complicated, but I also find it kind of fascinating.

01:09:43

Weirdly.

01:09:44

So help me, Mike, because there's something that rubs me a little bit the wrong way about

01:09:48

the structure or the way he unpacks this book.

01:09:52

And it didn't really crystallize for me until chapter seven and until the Netflix example

01:09:58

where the connection between the examples and then the points he wanted to make, it's

01:10:07

wasn't that any of them were bad.

01:10:09

It was a matter of like, I didn't always think it flowed really, really well.

01:10:15

Like there were, we've read books in the past where it's like, it just makes sense.

01:10:18

It's like, oh yeah, that example ties right to that point.

01:10:21

That example ties right to that point.

01:10:23

And it, I just didn't get that same impression feel.

01:10:28

I don't know what word I want to say there, but it's like, and then it really hit home

01:10:31

with, with this one, it was like a, oh, this Netflix story is an interesting story.

01:10:37

How do I fit it into hard conversations and the points I want to make with hard conversations?

01:10:42

And I think I've said this when I've reviewed, like when we've done the show on other books,

01:10:46

I really like the stuff that he outlines for hard conversations, the guidelines for hard

01:10:51

conversations, questions to ask yourself before beginning a conversation, right?

01:10:55

Like all of that very actionable, makes sense to me, seems very valuable to me.

01:11:01

And then it was like mixed in with this Netflix conversation that I just didn't feel fit.

01:11:07

Like it was okay, but it just felt like I was wasting pages.

01:11:12

And it was like, why?

01:11:13

Like why, like I don't need to, this much detail about that.

01:11:17

And I don't know what I want from you right now.

01:11:18

I guess in this conversation, just try to figure out what we're doing here.

01:11:22

But it's like, it just didn't sit right with me.

01:11:23

And I didn't know, did you have the same impression or did it sit better with you?

01:11:26

And that's just a me thing.

01:11:28

Well, I guess I could relate a little bit to this scenario.

01:11:34

Not that that exact same thing happened to me, but I could empathize with the setting

01:11:45

a little bit.

01:11:48

And I feel like you tell that story, there has to be a whole lot of detail that's added

01:11:57

because there's a whole bunch of nuance.

01:12:00

And I think at this point, it's a little bit out of place because yeah, this is like the

01:12:06

deepest level.

01:12:07

This is where you got to know how this stuff works if you find yourself in one of these

01:12:12

identity conversations.

01:12:14

But it's also kind of the information in here is sort of presented in a way like, okay,

01:12:20

so here's what you do if you end up here.

01:12:22

But maybe you don't want to go here all the time.

01:12:25

Like in the guide to using these ideas, there's the before discussion, ask yourself.

01:12:31

And it's what are your hopes?

01:12:33

How will you start?

01:12:35

What obstacles might emerge if those obstacles appear?

01:12:37

What's the plan?

01:12:38

And then what are the benefits of this dialogue?

01:12:42

And I think it's very possible that you go through that and the obstacles are plenty

01:12:49

and the benefits are few.

01:12:51

Yes.

01:12:52

Yes.

01:12:53

And then you're just like, you know what, let's not do this one.

01:12:59

So yeah, it is a little bit awkward.

01:13:01

And this is where like I feel having some sort of pyramid diagram or like a stack diagram

01:13:07

where you've got the different levels of the conversation instead of these are the three

01:13:10

different types of conversation, maybe helps because if you say, yeah, this is the one

01:13:16

that you're not going to talk about the most most very often, but it's going to be the

01:13:20

most important when you do like you really don't want to mess this one up because the

01:13:25

stakes are so high.

01:13:27

Maybe that that changes the tone a little bit.

01:13:31

But yeah, like if you're just looking at that Netflix example, there's a whole bunch

01:13:35

of detail that's being added there because you don't want that this guy made one mistake

01:13:39

and he didn't really mean it the way that it came across.

01:13:43

And like you don't want to paint this guy as an evil jerk.

01:13:47

So you need to now use a whole bunch of words to communicate a different message.

01:13:55

But then you, yeah, it's complicated.

01:13:58

Like it was it was such a stark example.

01:14:01

That's a great way to think about it.

01:14:02

Like it was such a stark example that like you launch in with that and then you're trying

01:14:06

to figure out what's the point, what's the rest of the chapter when the rest of the chapter

01:14:09

is really good.

01:14:10

I think the rest of the chapter stands really well on its own.

01:14:13

We didn't need that big punch to start out chapter seven.

01:14:16

So that's good.

01:14:17

That helped me.

01:14:18

Thanks.

01:14:19

That helped me process through why that sat funny with me.

01:14:22

Yeah, you maybe don't need that story, but at the other on the other hand, like maybe

01:14:26

you do need that story.

01:14:27

Like that's kind of his style is he's got these stories and then he talks about the

01:14:33

points.

01:14:34

And I feel like if you're going to include any sort of story, I don't know how you have

01:14:38

a story that illustrates the point about these like really deep rooted issues that could come

01:14:44

up in these conversations and these meetings where typically this stuff is like taboo.

01:14:49

And then like, how do you actually talk about this?

01:14:51

I feel like it was, it was a useful, a useful piece of the message that he's trying to convey

01:15:00

in these these sections.

01:15:02

But yeah, it does take a long time and add to the fact that it's really uncomfortable.

01:15:08

Like you do get to the point where like, okay, let's move on now.

01:15:13

Yeah, exactly.

01:15:16

Can I give my two liner on the afterward and you can, you're good.

01:15:21

I, the after was fine.

01:15:25

The link is intimate discussions, better relationships, better relationships, more happiness.

01:15:32

And I was like, okay, we're good.

01:15:34

Like check that box.

01:15:35

I just didn't feel, you know, like I don't know whether it just didn't resonate with

01:15:39

me, but I was kind of like, okay, this makes sense.

01:15:42

Well, again, the story here is fascinating.

01:15:47

So he talks about this study that was canceled at Harvard after they had a bunch of years

01:15:54

into it where they were basically following these people around and figuring out what

01:15:59

would make them successful salespeople because it was sponsored by this big business guy.

01:16:04

And he wanted to use it as like a filtering program for hiring and they needed the money.

01:16:11

So they're like, yeah, let's do this study.

01:16:13

And then somebody there stumbles upon this research, you know, 20 years after they canceled

01:16:17

it and decides to look these people up, find out they're still successful or not.

01:16:22

That reminded me a lot of a book that we covered previously.

01:16:27

I think this was the, the one that Joe had picked before he had to step away for a while.

01:16:32

So it was really weird.

01:16:34

It was the good life and I had to do it solo.

01:16:37

Yeah.

01:16:38

I, I, I remembered this one too.

01:16:40

And I was like, I wonder if this is the same study from the good life.

01:16:42

Yeah.

01:16:43

Yeah.

01:16:44

I don't think it, I don't think it is, but that's what it reminded me of.

01:16:46

Like same sort of, same sort of principles.

01:16:48

Like, well, let's figure out what really makes, you know, people successful.

01:16:52

And there's two big takeaways here.

01:16:54

The most important thing, most part of flourishing they found from the people that they checked

01:16:58

in on is the, whether they have a sense of love and really it's relationships, the people

01:17:04

who were miserable or the ones who had a negative sense of relationships.

01:17:08

So this is uncomfortable to me as an introvert, but I kind of do this already, having read

01:17:11

enough of these books, like relationships are important.

01:17:15

So you need to cultivate these, whether you like people or not.

01:17:19

It's kind of a joke at our house is like, my wife is very extroverted.

01:17:22

I am very introverted.

01:17:25

And so this kind of this, this point of tension, she always wants to go out and do stuff with

01:17:29

other people.

01:17:30

I'm just like, no, give me a book.

01:17:34

But, you know, before COVID hit, we had read the Art of Gathering by Prayaparkar.

01:17:42

And I forget there was one other thing that kind of spearheaded this, but oh, near I

01:17:48

all talked about in not the one, not hooked, but the other one.

01:17:56

Indestractable.

01:17:57

He talked about this concept of the kibbutz where they would have these other couples over

01:18:03

and the kids would go play together and the adults would have cheer a meal together and

01:18:07

then they'd have an intentional conversation.

01:18:09

So Rachel and I were like, you know, I like to show up places and ask deep questions and

01:18:13

make people uncomfortable.

01:18:14

She likes to hang out with people so we could combine those things.

01:18:19

And so we did that.

01:18:20

We bought new furniture for a living room and kind of laid it out differently so that we

01:18:23

could facilitate that sort of thing.

01:18:26

And we did that right before COVID happened and then it got shut down.

01:18:29

But that was like one of my things from one of my personal retreats was like, we got

01:18:32

to figure out ways to build these intentional relationships.

01:18:37

The intentional relationships hit way different with me.

01:18:40

You know, just being around people at a surface level, like that's very draining to the introverted

01:18:45

me.

01:18:46

But if I can really make a deep connection, like it kind of transforms the experience.

01:18:52

So like this was a different way of hitting on some of those, a reminder, I guess, of

01:18:59

those, those things that I had learned a while back.

01:19:03

But I think like the way he, he says it so succinctly in those two different points is

01:19:08

really well done.

01:19:10

And then in terms of like, okay, so the book is over, what are you going to do about this?

01:19:14

There's no like, okay, this is what you do next sort of a thing.

01:19:19

But the big takeaway I feel that is communicated in the afterward and I think is very effective

01:19:23

is that achieving connection is the most is the most important thing in life.

01:19:26

He actually says that verbatim in this afterward.

01:19:30

And I feel like that's very important.

01:19:32

And that is why you should read the book, honestly.

01:19:35

That's the, the, the case for everything that he just laid out there.

01:19:40

And it's kind of cool to see the evolution here.

01:19:42

You know, I mentioned at the beginning, he shares how he was struggling with this stuff.

01:19:46

And he's like, I better figure out how to do this.

01:19:48

That kind of resonated with me because that's sort of how I became a writer for the internet

01:19:53

is like, I want to write, I don't know how to write, I guess I better write, you know,

01:19:57

I better understand the process.

01:19:59

And that's why like creativity is and productivity is such a big deal to me.

01:20:04

You can kind of see the, the, the growth as he goes through these different steps.

01:20:10

And then it all culminates as to like, this is the most important thing that you can possibly

01:20:14

do.

01:20:15

And I do think that's true.

01:20:16

I don't think that's an overstatement.

01:20:18

I remember reading something by Chris Bailey.

01:20:21

I think it may be the productivity project.

01:20:23

At the end of that, he talks about how people are the reason for productivity.

01:20:28

Really like the most important thing is people.

01:20:31

And that's a really important concept that everybody's got to get at some point, even

01:20:37

if you're introverted like I am, and you generally just don't like being around quote unquote

01:20:41

people like large groups.

01:20:43

There are certain people, individuals that you need to form these strong connections

01:20:47

with that's going to make your life a lot better.

01:20:51

I don't know.

01:20:52

I think, I think we wrapped it.

01:20:54

I think we did a good job.

01:20:55

All right.

01:20:56

Awesome.

01:20:57

So let's go to action items.

01:20:59

I got a couple of links to grab and a couple of time stamps to enter.

01:21:02

So I'm going to let you go first if that's okay for action items.

01:21:05

That's the problem.

01:21:07

So what I want to do is I want to look at the 36 questions.

01:21:11

You said you found them.

01:21:13

So I want to find the 36.

01:21:15

I want to look through those.

01:21:17

I won't go as far as to say I'm going to encourage and or force someone to do these

01:21:24

questions with me.

01:21:26

But what I will say is like I would probably, let me look at them first, but I'll probably

01:21:32

be up for like a member special for going through these and seeing where it goes.

01:21:38

The next thing I want to do is I want to pay attention to throw away comments in my

01:21:44

conversations that I have.

01:21:45

Am I making these throw away comments, especially around identity, right?

01:21:48

So am I making these throw away comments?

01:21:51

And can I notice that and can I figure out a way to do that less?

01:21:57

So that might be in my teaching that might be in individual conversations I have with

01:22:01

family and friends or colleagues, whatever that might be.

01:22:04

Those are my two action items from this book.

01:22:07

Cool.

01:22:08

All right.

01:22:09

I've got three.

01:22:11

The first one is from the first section and I mentioned this already, but the do you want

01:22:17

to be helped, hugged or heard?

01:22:21

I don't think I'm going to use those terms with everybody.

01:22:25

Maybe I need to think of a different way to ask that question in a more professional

01:22:29

setting, but those terms specifically, I think would be helpful in my conversations with

01:22:33

my wife.

01:22:35

So I want to like explicitly ask that and really even deeper than that here is kind

01:22:41

of define the shared language so that we can use this together when we communicate to

01:22:48

make our communication more effective.

01:22:51

I also want to, I put rephrase common questions to spark deep conversation.

01:22:55

That was the way I worded it in my mind map file in the section on the, how do we feel

01:23:01

conversation?

01:23:02

And this is from the same chapter as those 36 fast friends method questions.

01:23:08

So it's not like specifically taking those and asking those in conversations, but really

01:23:17

it's taking like the, the conversations I would normally ask when I'm in a social situation,

01:23:25

like, Hey, what do you do for a living, that kind of stuff?

01:23:29

How do I change those so that they open up to a little bit deeper level?

01:23:35

I don't have a lot of opportunity to practice this necessarily, but it's just something

01:23:39

I want to be thinking about.

01:23:41

And really, I think that's the win is like trying to go deeper when I find myself in

01:23:44

those, those situations without making it awkward because that's what I do.

01:23:50

And then check out the Netflix culture deck.

01:23:53

Thank you.

01:23:54

You put the note in or the, the link to that already.

01:23:56

So I saw this on their website and I haven't looked at this one specifically, but I do

01:24:00

want to see this versus the old version.

01:24:05

So I want to see the differences between these and that'll take a little bit of, of digging,

01:24:12

but the way back machine may be involved here, but we'll, we'll find that out.

01:24:19

Their culture deck was simultaneously intriguing to me and then frightening at the same time

01:24:24

because I was like, yeah, and that sounds so freeing.

01:24:27

And I was like, man, that's going to go so bad.

01:24:28

Like, let's just get it guys.

01:24:29

So wrong in so many ways.

01:24:30

Yeah, I could see that.

01:24:32

Yeah.

01:24:33

All right.

01:24:35

Style and rating.

01:24:36

My book, I'll go first.

01:24:39

I feel like this is the Charles Duhig redemption story for me.

01:24:43

I really like this book.

01:24:45

I feel like you can see the models played out here.

01:24:49

I mean, if you're looking for fodder to make fun of your standard productivity book, it's

01:24:54

in here.

01:24:55

You've got the two by two grids.

01:24:56

You've got the wheels and there's lots of them.

01:25:01

Like there's, he leveraged every opportunity to create simple diagrams around the points

01:25:08

that he was making and it can be a little bit clumsy to figure out how they all link

01:25:12

or tie together.

01:25:13

I feel like you got to view some of them in isolation, but I feel the main model, which

01:25:19

is the one that doesn't have a graphic associated with it, of the three different conversations

01:25:25

is really powerful.

01:25:26

All you had to do was make three parts.

01:25:29

Yeah.

01:25:30

Well, he kind of did the three parts based on the conversations, but there's no visual

01:25:34

in terms of like how these go together.

01:25:36

And I feel like as we've talked about, there is kind of a natural escalation.

01:25:41

So choose the model you want to use, whether you're going higher, whether you're going

01:25:45

deeper.

01:25:46

But I mean, there are different levels to this, which is begging for that visual.

01:25:55

I don't think that necessarily detracts from the book at all.

01:26:00

I feel like the topic is super important.

01:26:03

I feel like it is very loosely tied to topic of emotional intelligence and there is an

01:26:06

opportunity to go deeper, but I don't really care that he didn't.

01:26:12

I feel like just these different levels of conversation and how to navigate flow between

01:26:18

them is very important.

01:26:21

But also, I don't know what exactly I was expecting, but not what I was expecting.

01:26:26

I can tell you that.

01:26:28

I figured this was going to be more like tactical when you're in a meeting and to get people

01:26:33

on your side do this.

01:26:35

Maybe it's just maybe it's because we just read a Robert Green book and that's very much

01:26:39

out of those tend to go.

01:26:44

But I feel like this is a really good book.

01:26:46

I feel like it's really understandable.

01:26:47

I feel like the stories are really good.

01:26:49

I feel like just about everybody could benefit from reading this.

01:26:53

I mean, you don't have to be in a corporate setting and you got to learn to navigate back

01:26:57

and forth with this stuff.

01:26:58

Although it's definitely useful in that situation.

01:27:01

It's not just for improving relationships at home, but like since everything that we

01:27:04

do really is tied to other people in some way, shape or form, this is a book that if you

01:27:09

really understood this and I feel like if you took this to heart, this would absolutely

01:27:15

make your communication better in just about any area of life.

01:27:19

So I'm going to recommend this one to just about everybody.

01:27:24

I didn't read this book and was like, "Oh my gosh, this was completely life changing."

01:27:30

I did have to work for the insight and revelation that I got from this.

01:27:33

I'll just say that.

01:27:35

There are some books I pick up and they just click and they're like, "Yeah, you're speaking

01:27:38

my language."

01:27:40

And I read through it in 24 hours and feels like 15 minutes.

01:27:45

That wasn't this book.

01:27:48

So I'm going to read it at four stars as much as I shared all the really good stuff that

01:27:53

comes out of it.

01:27:54

I do feel like you do got to put in a little bit of work with this one.

01:27:59

I do think it's worth it.

01:28:00

I think the topic is awesome.

01:28:03

I really like the way that Charles Duhigah approached this one.

01:28:07

I'm going to pick up the next Charles Duhig book after reading this one.

01:28:11

So I mean, if you had to pick, it's probably between a four and a five for me, but I just

01:28:15

don't feel like it gets to five star territory.

01:28:21

It's hard to describe the feeling that you get when you walk away from a five star book.

01:28:27

It just hits different.

01:28:30

And this one didn't.

01:28:31

This one was like, "I'm glad that I read that.

01:28:33

This is really useful.

01:28:35

I enjoyed it, but okay, onto the next thing."

01:28:38

So four stars.

01:28:41

Yeah.

01:28:42

So I'll give the end first.

01:28:44

Four stars as well.

01:28:45

I'm right where you were.

01:28:48

I think the last comment you made summarizes my thinking very, very well.

01:28:55

I'm really glad I read this book.

01:28:56

I actually think I'm going to use a lot of the concepts in this book moving forward.

01:29:01

And I'm going to experiment with them and I'm going to figure out, are they effective

01:29:05

and how are they effective and how do they incorporate into my natural style of communicating

01:29:09

with other people.

01:29:12

That face value, I think all of the stuff made a lot of sense.

01:29:16

And it was backed by good examples or research or things that weren't just somebody sitting

01:29:23

down and just making up a bunch of stories and writing those there.

01:29:27

I think my knock tends to be, I felt like some of the stories or some of the examples

01:29:32

were a little bit forced to end there.

01:29:36

And I actually have very little, if any qualms with the core concepts or the content from

01:29:45

the, this is how to communicate effectively and emotional situations and in factual situations

01:29:50

and in practical and all that.

01:29:52

I didn't really have any issues with that.

01:29:55

Mine was more so the stories that attached to that.

01:30:00

And then you described really, really well.

01:30:02

I walked out of it going, "Okay.

01:30:04

Good."

01:30:05

And I didn't walk out of it with that like, "Man, that was a great book."

01:30:09

If people want to, a good book to read or if they're thinking about communication and

01:30:14

how to communicate better, I will definitely recommend this to them.

01:30:17

But it's not going to be one that like randomly I'll just walk up to people and be like, "You

01:30:21

know what you should read?

01:30:22

You should read super communicators."

01:30:24

Right?

01:30:25

Where there are other books where I would definitely do that.

01:30:27

So I'm in agreement four stars.

01:30:30

Like, or what's our next upcoming book?

01:30:32

I guess it's mine, so I'll start.

01:30:35

We're going to read "Why We Sleep" by Matt Walker.

01:30:40

And I'm actually really, really glad you encouraged me to pick this one because last episode you

01:30:45

encouraged me to pick this one.

01:30:47

I listened to Matt Walker talk about sleep on the Andrew Huberman podcast and he's kind

01:30:55

of going through this guest series with it.

01:30:57

And I'm actually excited to read this book now.

01:31:00

Right?

01:31:01

I'm describing the book.

01:31:02

They're actually just talking about sleep from a whole different perspective.

01:31:04

But like hearing him talk about it and just the way he unpacks different things, I'm pretty

01:31:11

jazzed to read this book and I think it's going to be a really interesting book for us.

01:31:15

So what's yours?

01:31:17

Awesome.

01:31:18

Yeah, I'm looking forward to "Why We Sleep Also."

01:31:20

The book I am picking is "Super Thinking" by Gabriel Weinberg and Lauren McCann.

01:31:26

I talked to you about this in...

01:31:28

I guess it wasn't the pro show.

01:31:30

It was the bootleg.

01:31:32

But this was a book that's been on my radar for a while.

01:31:38

I like the whole concept of mental models and I discovered recently because I share an

01:31:44

office at the co-working space with a designer for DuckDuckGo that Gabriel Weinberg, I believe,

01:31:51

is the CEO for DuckDuckGo.

01:31:53

So my office mate had this book and was asking him about it.

01:31:57

He's like, "Oh yeah, that's the CEO."

01:31:59

It's like, "Oh, interesting.

01:32:01

Well I like DuckDuckGo to begin with.

01:32:04

That's my default search engine on my phone actually.

01:32:07

I don't use Google."

01:32:09

Oh, okay.

01:32:10

So I like the company but I like mental models more and if you combine those things, like

01:32:16

maybe this is a good book.

01:32:18

It's going to be a big one though.

01:32:19

So I asked you about it like, "Hey, you cool?

01:32:21

Let me pick in this one."

01:32:23

It's like 350 pages.

01:32:24

We're getting into Robert Green territory again.

01:32:26

Thank you.

01:32:27

But 350 pages about mental models?

01:32:28

Yes, please.

01:32:29

Sign me up.

01:32:30

Yep.

01:32:31

All right.

01:32:32

Gunny Gepics?

01:32:33

So I feel as though I'm doing the podcast to disservice.

01:32:39

I feel as though if you're going to talk about liminal thinking, I'm familiar with

01:32:45

liminal thinking because I probably listened to the bookworm episode of liminal thinking

01:32:50

but I've not read liminal thinking.

01:32:52

So I need to read liminal thinking that way.

01:32:56

I can connect with you on a level that just makes sense.

01:33:00

So I'm going to read liminal thinking.

01:33:01

That's my gepit.

01:33:02

So Corey is going to super communicate by reading liminal thinking.

01:33:07

I love it.

01:33:09

Yeah, that's a good one.

01:33:11

Glad you're reading it.

01:33:12

I actually had that thought of like, "Maybe we should record liminal thinking again."

01:33:18

And you and I just talk about it.

01:33:20

Yeah.

01:33:21

All right.

01:33:22

I got a gepit book.

01:33:23

It's Smart Brevity by Jim Van de Hey, Mike Allen and Roy Schwartz.

01:33:26

So Smart Brevity is a very prescriptive way to communicate the internet with written text.

01:33:35

And I don't think I'm going to do the exact thing but I think the principles of the talk

01:33:39

about there are really, really good.

01:33:42

Most of the way done with this one, I got a couple chapters left.

01:33:45

Very easy read.

01:33:46

Anyone who communicates with words, I feel like should read this.

01:33:51

All right.

01:33:52

Well, that'll do it for this episode.

01:33:55

I'm going to say thank you to the Bookworm supporters.

01:33:59

We have a Patreon now, seven bucks a month.

01:34:01

If you support the show, you get our undying gratitude.

01:34:04

I really appreciate it.

01:34:05

It helps keep the lights on.

01:34:07

And you get a couple of perks for that.

01:34:09

You get a 4K wallpaper.

01:34:11

You get access to a couple of private feeds.

01:34:14

One is the bootleg feed, which gets uploaded right after we record.

01:34:18

So that has all of the stumblings and all the mistakes that we made are still in there.

01:34:26

But you get access to the episode about a week and a half to two weeks before it actually

01:34:30

comes out.

01:34:31

You also get a pro feed, which is the edited show with an extra section.

01:34:38

And today we talked about the Vision Pro and where we see that technology fitting because

01:34:45

I got a chance to demo one when I was in Kansas City.

01:34:49

And that gets released the day before the regular show.

01:34:55

That show also, when we have ads, has the ads removed.

01:34:58

So a couple of perks there.

01:34:59

But if you are interested in supporting the show, you can go to patreon.com/bookwormfm.

01:35:07

I think that's the right URL.

01:35:08

Did I get that right, Corey?

01:35:09

Okay.

01:35:10

Cool.

01:35:11

All right.

01:35:12

So thanks, everyone, for listening along.

01:35:15

And if you're reading along with us, pick up why we sleep by Matt Walker.

01:35:18

And we'll talk to you in a couple of weeks.