Bookworm Transcripts

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So this has been a long time coming so mike meet josh josh meet mike.

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Hey josh hey mike where's nerdy shirts like i do.

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You're like wearing all the professional stuff Joe i just want you to know that well maybe that's cuz you're in that's cuz you're on three podcast or ten podcast or something like that.

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Somebody's got to bring the average yes.

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We might be mike and i shave i just want you know that the non bearded people out.

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Number the bearded people in this conversation that's true believe i shave this morning you do you believe me.

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No unless you have a big huge bite mark on your shoulder that seriously looks like a wolf.

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Or you're wearing red the red outfit member of the Santa Claus when you kept trying to shave every morning kept growing out the beard right right your Santa Claus that could be a two.

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So let's jump in here for the listeners because at this point listeners probably know that.

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Yes we have strong connection to your and you know i know josh really well i know mike really well but you do continue to talk about each other on our respective podcast so it's only a matter of time before we connect and thus here we are and since we found out that josh.

00:01:29

Has read the book we're gonna go through today and mike has strong opinion on it josh seems to have a strong opinion on it.

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I figured this could be an entertaining time to connect and i think who started this was this mike that said that hey we need to get on the.

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One of you tweeted about this and said that we need to connect.

00:01:48

Which one i think that i think that yeah it was kind of my tweet that got things going but i definitely wasn't the originator of the idea.

00:01:56

Who was the original idea was that Joe i don't know i just don't want to take credit for for this brilliant idea it's not mine and i don't really need to do.

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We need to do is put a disclaimer that mike and i just showed up.

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Show that i did all of it alright okay so for the listeners of bookworm who are not familiar with theoretical accountability josh is my co host on that show which is all about.

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Everything i guess goals theoretically we're keeping ourselves on track with our goals that's the idea it follows the 12 week year and the intent is that we will help each other meet those goals.

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We're really good at go trails.

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I'll just say the other thing that the show is good is tracking josh excuses for various problems around is how you want to bring this up why you gotta do that.

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Yes i think we should jump right into follow up right here and we should talk about how Joe hasn't seen star wars yet.

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See i even left the follow up piece off the outline i did i did that intentionally.

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I noticed that but this is the only opportunity maybe that josh and i will have to take it a task for this because it is absolutely ridiculous that you have not seen star wars yet.

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Okay i am putting it up there of not reading the constitution at least once or the declaration of independence at least once.

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And being a u.s. citizen i'm just saying.

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It's it's it's pretty bad Joe i don't even know i mean i'm kind of choked up most people know i have words on words i have a lot of good and powerful words.

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And i'm very very unworthy right now because you haven't seen star wars.

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I don't know what to say i have not seen it time doesn't allow me to see it right now.

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Mike by the way i was thinking mike i was thinking about putting up a billboard near jose house.

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That said that that actually play star wars on a continuous loop so then he will have to actually pay attention.

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At some point and see at least the major scenes because he makes references every notice that he makes some references the star wars stuff.

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But he hasn't seen that that's that's really bad well i know Joe in the last episode of wins at work you're talking about you might be getting an iPad so you could get your iPad and you could watch star wars picture in picture while you're doing quote unquote your real work.

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And then you could say at least that you've watched it.

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So i think that you need to buy the iPad in order to watch star wars saying this whole star wars thing is getting expensive now.

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Well you wouldn't get expensive you just sit down and watch it i mean you don't we you don't have to buy an iPad okay so when tell me when to do this so i just don't know when the time is that i would try to enable you Joe.

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I know you're trying to help me buy stuff i just bought a bunch of stuff so hang on so we've already established my that joseons audio books but only if his wife is reading them.

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And we've established on my podcast so maybe just maybe Joe could have his wife read the script to him while they're driving on their trip on starting on Friday.

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I know you're driving yes you could get you can get star wars on audiobook format and listen to it on your way to max stock.

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Okay hello so i'm not your every video so every single star wars video combined how much time is there.

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Okay now that is a very very complicated question.

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Is this similar to like Lord of the Rings where there's the extended versions and well it's even worse than Lord of the Rings because there's like four versions of each of the the original three films.

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Like three or four versions of it then there's counting that the prequels which most some star wars fans count them some stores don't.

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So you've never seen all of them you could watch it in the shot what is it called the shotgun method of your about this mic you watch.

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Episode one and two then you watch four five six then you watch episode three.

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I've not done that yes it's that's the shotgun method because spoilers if you watch three four five and six are kind of spoiled so you don't really want to do that because four five and six are the most powerful of them the originals.

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You could there's a lot of different ways you can handle this there is a a cut of the first trilogy the first trilogy the prequels that is.

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Thirty minutes long that gets you pretty much everything you need to know about the first.

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First trilogy which would be then cutting it down so there's lots of plays and variables here.

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And really all we want you to do is watch the first star wars movie that's it you can pick whatever person you want the first one that the episode for episode is that for okay.

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That's episode four watch episode four and.

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If you can't if that doesn't make you want to watch five and six you can go to your al Qaeda slash Isis meeting and stop the podcasting stuff because you might want to start recording.

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Come from I'm just saying if you don't like Star Wars you've got serious issues and you're firing me from all podcasts is that what it is.

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I think Mike agrees with me he's laughing I'm just pointing out facts here.

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I agree in principle I may not agree tactically with the al Qaeda and Isis stuff but I understand the principle.

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I'm buying it on her because because it's like.

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People who are in technology who have also not seen you've seen a Star Trek episode or two right.

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Or do we need to go there I have seen I think two episodes but they were like later on and I didn't understand it because I didn't know.

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Okay all the backstory of it but like I have friends I had a friend who developed cell phone technology but never seen the Star Trek movies which is the founding of cellular technology.

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It's true actually the guy who vented the cell phones and I saw on Star Trek and I wanted to create it.

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So.

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If you go watch history so so I don't know I just it's very disconcerting that you that I am friends with somebody who hasn't seen Star Wars which is not necessarily the only friend I have that is not seen Star Wars either.

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I have several engineering friends who have not seen Star Wars which still freaks me out.

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But I freaked you out it does it really really does because it's it's.

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It's American heritage it's American culture I mean it's the one of the best things that came out of the 70s.

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I'm not even calling me in that damn list of five things that was born in the 70s.

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I think the lesson here is that you can never fully trust somebody who hasn't seen Star Wars especially if they're on a productivity podcast you could say theoretically that your team is dysfunctional which leads us into today's book.

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I don't know what happens out but this is very very good so today's book is the five dysfunctions of a team and this was my pick.

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This is one of my favorite books I know this is one of Josh's not most favorite books which will talk about it a little bit.

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But this is something that really influence the way that that I work and how I view a lot of the teams and organizations that I work with now I have to.

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Flat out say here though Joe you had put in the outline that you did the questionnaire based on one of the teams that you work with.

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I did not do that because I.

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Look at the look that the assessment saw the assessment and I felt bad taking that assessment because I felt like I would be projecting.

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Values which maybe weren't necessarily true based on my own personal situation so.

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I am not prepared to share results of the questionnaire but there's a lot of principles in here that are worth teasing out and kind of what's cool about this book is that it's not a traditional book where.

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Especially in the productivity space for example self help self management you've got people who are like this is the system all you got to do is follow these three things in your life will be changed for the better and only 30 days.

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It's definitely not like that the first part of this book is a fable and there's a couple key elements that he introduces to this fable he introduces them through a bunch of different characters and the last part of the book is the actual.

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This is how you might actually use this in your own personal situation with your own team so.

00:10:51

I don't know where do you want to go from there you talk about the disfunctions first you talk about the characters you want to talk about why I like the book just doesn't like the book.

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I need to clarify the book has baggage for me okay not that I don't like the book it has baggage and story and we will do it later.

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But I would say start with the disfunctions because that's kind of what the fable does right at the beginning is kind of go through the team the way it was when the lady joined the team and going where she watched and tried to learn what the team was doing.

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I think the rest of our conversation it's not going to make any sense unless we go through that so okay ready to go.

00:11:31

All right so the story starts with a silicone valley start up it's which is a fictional start up it's called decision tech and there's this lady that is being hired as the CEO and I believe her name is Catherine.

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She has a lot of experience but not specifically in the technology industry so she's got to overcome that stigma and she's basically hired because the company should be doing really well they've got a lot of advantages they were one of the first to market they've got a lot of technological advantages.

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But they aren't achieving the level of success that they believe that they should.

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So another one of the characters Jeff who kind of was the CEO he's agreed to kind of step aside and let somebody new come in and and steer the ship.

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And she comes in from the auto industry and she comes and she just observes for like two weeks and everybody there is like what is going on because she's not actually doing anything.

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And the first thing that she does other than take notes is she calls this two day off site for the entire management team which is kind of not well received because everybody thinks that we're not doing very well we should be working.

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But her point is essentially that if we can't function as a team it doesn't matter tactically what we're going to be doing the actual work that we're doing if we're not doing it as a team it's not going to be as effective and I think that that is.

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Probably the most powerful part of this is like if you you can be on a team and there's a lot of there's a lot of things that you will probably recognize from the dysfunctions.

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In your in any current team that you are working with we can get into these these specifically.

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But these are all hurdles that essentially need to be overcome before you can really run at full speed as a as a team or an organization.

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And so she during the offsite she introduces these different dysfunctions and they talk through their issues and then at the end obviously everything is good.

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Some people have left the company because they couldn't get on board with a new strategy.

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But as a as an organization it's healthier and it's moving in the right direction.

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And I felt like it was interesting to see that whenever they introduced this change.

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On the management team that one particular individual realized I can't cut it and left.

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And there was another individual that Catherine ended up firing or basically asking to leave.

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Simply because they weren't playing as a team like this particular individual who was it was it Mikey was the the she was the VP of marketing I think.

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It was interesting to me that.

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Her attitude in that scenario was one that didn't fit the rest of the team even though she was like top notch in the sector.

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She was considered like the best in that world and yet because she's not playing as a team that didn't matter.

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She's still going to get kicked off the team as a result.

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So I just thought it was interesting that Catherine as she comes in she's able to see a lot of that and make those make those correlations.

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You have either of you read creative ink the story by the star.

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I have it's a great one to.

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John Lasseter talks about those people that are really really really good because I work in engineering and there are people that are like superstar engineering people they understand everything.

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But they also don't work with teams and last but I said we don't hire those people.

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We we we we don't want people on the team.

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That are the Tom Brady's if you will for football analogy.

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Or the Elon Musk's business world whatever you want to say I think everybody would hire Elon Musk but.

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If you don't something's wrong with you something wrong with you but.

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They don't want to hire the really superstars that don't want to work as a team and that's that kills a lot of teams is.

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Because the other people feel like they don't need to contribute anything because they've got the superstar guy.

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Or girl whatever the case may be the superstar personages who knows everything and they don't have to do anything.

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And that hurts the team in a lot of ways.

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Yeah and actually that's they they kind of explain that through the story and.

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They don't explicitly say it but you can kind of pick up on it where people think that oh well Mikey made this thing so it's got to be.

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It's got to be great because Mikey's the superstar you know.

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And really Catherine notices those little things that people just like accepting the work that people are doing and not asking the questions about it.

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And that's kind of like a red flag in her mind and proof that they're not really.

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Functioning as a team and on the surface you can think about that and be like well that's kind of contradictory like aren't you supposed to.

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Trust your teammates and you delegate the work and then everybody just does it and then you come together and you put all the pieces together and bam you've got this awesome thing.

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But the the way that the five disfunctions lays it out.

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Essentially the conflict is essential element and so when you just say okay is this person you make this thing and then whatever you come up.

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With we're going to wedge that in here like there's no conflict in that process.

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There's no additional perspectives.

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There's no chance to ask questions get clarifications and so the belief is that kind of the end result is not going to be as good and I love that you brought up.

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Create creativity ink is that the name of the book.

00:16:55

Yes.

00:16:56

It makes up creative or create creativity ink.

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The one with the picture of Buzz Lightyear on the cover.

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Because there's a lot of stuff in there a lot of details about the Pixar process

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and there's some crazy stuff.

00:17:08

Yep there it is creativity ink.

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Like they even talk in there about how they custom designed the furniture for their meetings because they didn't want

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people to come into the meeting and they picked their position you know based on like the hierarchy like where you would sit.

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So they actually custom designed tables and chairs and everything so that

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basically eliminated that opportunity for people.

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And I think as you're talking about the five dysfunctions of a team and essentially like how do you have a productive meeting.

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I think that that's that's really important.

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The another example of the conflict thing was if you've read Decisive by Chip and Dan Heath.

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You guys.

00:17:46

We did that for the show.

00:17:47

Yeah you did that for the show.

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Remember when he's the CEO who of Quaker bought Snapple for 1.7 billion and nobody questioned it because he goes.

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He's already made all these really good decisions so why even bother questioning him.

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But what made the first decision so good was they questioned him.

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And so he had to he had to show up his things and he he's like okay and they bought it and then they sold it in

00:18:09

1997 for 30 300 million they bought it for 1.7 billion.

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I mean they lost a little bit of a loss.

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That's a scoash a scoash blossom.

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I would have liked to have just taken a million off that deal and just had it just me and that would be nice.

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But yeah I mean everybody doesn't mean that ever there's so many people that are afraid of conflict

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but they don't understand that conflict is a necessity for growth.

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Bird I don't remember which oh it's in Cardone's book I think it's in Cardone's book that you guys read.

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Which is the birds can't learn how to fly unless they break out of the egg.

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I don't know if you guys knew that if the bird doesn't I mean maybe it was not

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Cardone's I don't remember what book I've been reading so many books. But if you bird if the bird if the bird is helped out of the egg

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by its mother it never learns to fly because in the process of breaking out of that egg

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it develops its wings so that it can fly.

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Yeah I'm not sure what book that is from but I have heard that story and I think that that's absolutely true.

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And so I mean you could you could apply that to the five dysfunctions of a team and an organization in a couple different ways.

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Number one if you really want to develop the people that are on your team into the superstars

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so if you had a team of superstars that was all able to work together effectively like just imagine what you could actually get done.

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Most teams and organizations aren't there and they will never get there because like you said Josh like they're going to avoid that conflict

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but I can look back at the times where conflict has arisen and I've had to navigate through it myself

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that those are the times like you said that really really grew me.

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But then also as a team or an organization there's kind of the same same approach I think where

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if you'd never go through some stuff like you're limited or you're stunted in your growth as a

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as an organization or even as a business like if you just enter the market at the right time you never have to go through any adversity.

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You never develop any resilience or grit you know then

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you're limited in the amount of success that you can have but when you successfully navigate those those tough times

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then that gives you the confidence that you can basically overcome anything.

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Well we've seen this in a lot of different organizations even when founders hand off to their kids say

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somebody starts a business and then they give it to their kid without the kid having to work at it or anything

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and the kid just runs it into the ground because they have not struggled the way the the owner did building the business.

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They've not been tested. By the way I remember the book it was Take the Stairs by Rory Vaden.

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That's a great book. That that was the book that had the bird deal that the bird thing in it.

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The bird doo dad thing. The bird doo dad story whatever.

00:20:57

No I totally agree. We've got so the I don't think we've mentioned what the five disfunctions are

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so let's run through those very really quick because I got a feeling we're going to talk about a lot of them.

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So I'm not going to go into them in too much detail but the first one absence of trust and you have to think of these as a pyramid.

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They all build on each other so you can't go to the next one until you have the first.

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I mean you could try but you know that might be a dysfunction in and of itself of trying to move on to the next level.

00:21:27

Yeah so the absence of trust in the pyramid just to clarify is going from the bottom up if you're visualizing.

00:21:34

As I'm reading it yeah so I'm starting at the very bottom so the foundation here is absence of trust.

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On top of that is the fear of conflict. Once you're past the fear of conflict then you're on to lack of commitment.

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Past the lack of commitment is avoidance of accountability and then the very top is inattention to results and each one of these has

00:21:56

what would you call that Mike an indicator of what that is for each one.

00:22:02

A cause or an evidence I believe is how they kind of define it in the book.

00:22:07

So like the absence of trust for example the evidence or the cause of that the visible manifestation of an absence of trust on your team

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is that people feel that they need to be invulnerable. They need to protect their job.

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You know they need to make sure that they're not going to be held responsible for the wrong choice.

00:22:26

And right there like that got my attention because I've mentioned on this podcast before like one of the biggest lessons I learned

00:22:32

with the Asian efficiency team is that it doesn't matter whose fault it is.

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What matters is how do we fix it so accountability is not pointing the finger in blaming

00:22:41

you know Joe you really you really messed up this podcast because you didn't watch Star Wars.

00:22:47

You didn't edit it right.

00:22:48

Right no you didn't watch Star Wars is blaming Joe it's totally false.

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But accountability is how can we make sure that Joe watches Star Wars

00:23:00

so that we can be successful. And I've talked about one specific evidence of that from the

00:23:04

when we watch the productivity show because I was responsible for the editing and the publishing of the podcast of the actual audio files and the WordPress post at the beginning.

00:23:13

And so we were doing some stuff in WordPress and then I was not in there but all of a sudden I look on my my pod catcher overcast and I get a notification that there's a new episode of the productivity show and I'm like what?

00:23:26

Because I wasn't done editing yet you know and so I was freaking out and I'm like well how did this happen you know I'm trying to figure out like who did what who pushed the button essentially.

00:23:35

And tan basically like cut me off in a meeting is like doesn't matter doesn't matter like how do we make sure that this does not happen again because once it's out there I mean it's done.

00:23:44

There's nothing you can do you can't recall that podcast episode but it's so as much as we wish we could.

00:23:52

Yeah yeah and I know people do this all the time there's another podcast I listen to occasionally I think it's.

00:23:57

Shoot what is it it's the one with Ben Thompson from Master Techery.

00:24:01

And there was an episode which was launched and then I got another notification saying this is the the fixed one and then I got a third one saying final fixed.

00:24:12

So three different episodes you just downloaded three different times so it's I mean it's my point is that it's common in that people people do that sort of thing.

00:24:21

I bet his download numbers were awesome probably I mean we should do that.

00:24:25

Just accidentally release it three times yeah but especially like I use that that story because I think it's a really clear indication of like once it's out there there's nothing you can do to to change what has happened but you can apply that to any situation like you can't change what has happened but you can change.

00:24:42

The situation and the system that's in place to make sure that it doesn't happen again.

00:24:48

So Mike you had to read this for Asian efficiency when you join the team is that right.

00:24:52

Yep tan made everybody on the team read this book.

00:24:56

Okay so then is that partially why you think it's such a great book because it was when you were joining that team or what's what's the backstory there.

00:25:05

Couple different things I think one I was joining the Asian efficiency team and the way that they run meetings is.

00:25:17

I like it a lot better I'll just say it that way.

00:25:19

The way with you start meetings.

00:25:22

And so it was a it was a breath of fresh air because a lot of times I've been in those situations where you have these meetings and their meetings just to hear people talk.

00:25:32

The five distinctions of a team essentially what they talk about in the last part of the book is that the best use of meetings is when something needs to be discussed and a decision needs to be made it's not.

00:25:42

To let everybody know about a decision that was already made or communicate information.

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Which is how a lot of people run meetings is like oh let's just get everybody in a room and we'll tell them all these things that we could type up and send out in an email but.

00:25:54

That's a another rant for another another time.

00:25:58

So I think part of it was that and then part of it was just the realization that oh my gosh you mean you can have a meeting and you can make decisions and stuff can be resolved.

00:26:10

Like in this one hour time frame that you've set aside for the meeting.

00:26:14

That just seemed like a kind of foreign idea to me and then also I think that conflict is going to be there whether you recognize it or not.

00:26:23

So the whole idea of getting conflict out in the open and on the table where you can actually deal with it.

00:26:29

I really liked that idea rather than having it below the surface and everybody just.

00:26:34

Holds their tongue because they don't want the meeting to be extended or they don't want to open a can of worms you know that sort of thing like i've never.

00:26:41

I've never liked that so i've worked for some of the largest companies on this planet.

00:26:47

Yeah actually I can say that Lockheed is 200,000 people the current company i worked for IBM which was about 300,000 people and i've worked now the company i work at now is.

00:26:59

20,000 people and it's interesting how big companies handle things versus different i've also worked for smaller companies it's interesting how smaller versus bigger companies handle these things.

00:27:12

And take for example.

00:27:15

I worked for small company and we could have these conflicts we could have these disagreements and nobody took it personally.

00:27:23

But if these bigger companies they seem to the absence of trust is hugely there because they're going through layoffs on a regular basis so everybody's trying to predict their jobs.

00:27:33

And the ununfiltered conflict there's pockets of it like teens smaller teams but when you.

00:27:41

When you get in the bigger group nobody wants to say anything because.

00:27:44

They're afraid that they'll look like the monster if they say you know.

00:27:48

That doesn't make any sense to me for example i was in a.

00:27:54

In a meeting the guy was trying to give us a pep talk and i've told i don't know if i told Joe the story.

00:27:59

But i've told a lot of people the story he started the conversation is at Lockheed Martin we chemically deafened a cat.

00:28:08

Okay i'm not making this up i couldn't make us up any post.

00:28:13

And we're like all looking at this is when the plans closing in line in minneapolis here in egan and we're looking at like.

00:28:21

What is this about why are we talking why why do you leave a pep talk meeting while the plan is up.

00:28:28

And he goes.

00:28:29

But we made it here again with our new nanotechnology division but nobody would challenge this guy of going hey you know that's not necessarily.

00:28:38

The smartest idea to start when the plans closing nobody cares about what Lockheed's doing.

00:28:44

Outside of the plant closure you've just announced the plant closure and you're giving your you're laying off 1500 people.

00:28:51

I don't know it's just it's weird how they won't conflict similar to this Quaker Oats and buying snap.

00:29:00

Well nobody will conflict the higher up people because they're afraid for their jobs.

00:29:04

As Joe probably Mike you probably guessed i don't have that problem i tend to challenge everybody i was yesterday at my boss i was their challenge everything they were doing like you guys are like.

00:29:15

Managing by using the force.

00:29:18

That's a star wars analogy by the way Joe okay thanks for the clarification there if i need to stop the forces this mysterious thing i could explain it to you but i get it i get it you can watch the movie and to be faster.

00:29:33

I'll write it's like the authors knew how to do story building.

00:29:38

Oh okay didn't know that.

00:29:40

We're having fun but it is amazing how the difference is on bigger companies versus smaller companies and i wonder.

00:29:48

How many bigger companies can still do not have these disfunctions because i i mean small companies it's easy to do if tech's tams owns.

00:29:59

Asian efficiency go this is the way it's going to be and there's fifteen twenty people but when you're managing through middle management when you were reading off the five disfunctions i'm actually looking at my notes from the book.

00:30:11

When you're looking at it a lot of the.

00:30:14

Five the middle discount disfunctions the fear of conflict lack of commitment and avoidance of accountability.

00:30:21

Our middle management and i'm wondering if that inherently by being and then the trust is that is the basis are us us workers down here at the.

00:30:30

Base of things and i'm wondering is if because of the.

00:30:33

If there's some sort of hierarchical when there's multiple levels of a company.

00:30:38

That naturally throws this stuff in because nobody can understand from the top down.

00:30:44

I i i i i i i this is just talking about i don't know it just seems like bigger companies seem to always have this when we go to smaller problem smaller companies when i've been in smaller companies of twenty.

00:30:53

It never seem to have these kinds of problems.

00:30:56

I think that it's definitely easier to incorporate something like the.

00:31:01

The model laid out in the five disfunctions of a team in a smaller company.

00:31:07

Just because you don't have a lot of the other variables i think that at a larger company it is possible though.

00:31:14

I again i've not worked in a large company so maybe it's it's just physically not as soon as you start adding.

00:31:21

Layers of in the hierarchy and all the different managers and things like that that just get so many different personalities that it's very very very difficult to make that all work.

00:31:32

I read a book by michael master sent a while back called ready fire aim.

00:31:37

And he talks in there about scaling up your your business essentially and he talks about how is that you can really only invest into seven people at a time.

00:31:48

And once you've invested into those seven people they have to then invest in seven people and they invest in seven people and that's where you get a large large teams and obviously the more pieces that you add in there the more opportunities there are for things to go wrong.

00:32:02

My theory is that.

00:32:04

If you are aware of this model though like if you were to take these five disfunctions of a team and as your company scales if this was first and foremost that you would be able at least in theory.

00:32:16

To communicate this to everybody that you work with all the managers that would be underneath you let's say you are the the CEO of the company you know agency grows and we've got a hundred people.

00:32:26

Okay so tan is the CEO he's instilled the stuff in me and the other people who are on the team right now and then we've got people underneath us we instilled into them obviously there's more opportunity for air there.

00:32:36

But the theory is that there's at least the possibility that as long as we communicate well as long as we communicate the vision of the company well as long as tan is continuing to invest.

00:32:46

In us where like the next level management and then we communicate to our teams and the people underneath us that it should be again theoretically possible.

00:32:56

Not I've not seen it though yeah yeah and I know having worked at a large ad company one of the things that I know.

00:33:07

In something that may be to your point Josh as to why this is a problem in bigger companies as opposed to smaller ones is the smaller ones like if I take our church for example.

00:33:17

You know that particular team whenever I ran the questionnaire towards the end of this on it that team is like top notch like that team is right on track it doesn't have you know as according to that questionnaire didn't have any of these disfunctions.

00:33:29

Which is really interesting to me but if I reflect back on to working in the corporate scenario.

00:33:35

The difference that I have between those two is that in the church scenario there's really one team like there might be.

00:33:43

Two like there's the broader leadership team and then there's like the technical support team.

00:33:48

Between those two but there's really it's not going to be beyond those two whenever I was I was sitting here while you're talking might thinking about how many different teams was I a part of when I was in.

00:33:58

Corporate and I could come up with thirteen and I'm sure they were more than that as far as how many different you know pro not protocols projects I was a part of that had.

00:34:09

A separate set of leadership and so forth and because of that you end up.

00:34:15

You end up in a scenario where you all have to have trust the individuals on each and every team you you have to be okay to challenge things on each and every one of those teams.

00:34:25

You know you have to commit to each one of you you can run through all these different disfunctions and make sure you're overcoming them.

00:34:31

But at the end of the day that's a lot of people and that's a lot of scenarios and it's a lot of instances where.

00:34:38

You know if I'm successful on this particular project I have a chance to advance my career but these other three.

00:34:44

They're not going to be an impact their a drain on my daily work and I really shouldn't be doing them but my boss thinks I should be doing them so here I am so I don't really want to be a part of those.

00:34:54

And there's no reason for me to be there and it's very easy to get into those.

00:34:58

Scenarios not because you want to but just because you're forced to in a lot of those corporate scenarios and I'm sure I mean Josh you've probably seen this in a lot of cases where you run across people who are just so spread then across how many different initiatives that you're just.

00:35:11

You're going to burn out on it and there's always going to be at least one or two that you're not interested in so eventually that's going to permeate.

00:35:18

From a political standpoint throughout.

00:35:21

The teams and the people that you're connected with.

00:35:24

Yeah there's there's a ton there you're talking about the projects that your boss wants to do and you not really bought into it I mean that's.

00:35:32

The function number three lack of commitment general from ambiguity but I think the real issue is.

00:35:39

A lack of communication a great podcast episode that I recently listened to amid my wife listened to also is the Sean West podcast it's just called the communication episode.

00:35:50

And so it's Sean McCabe and Ben Tolson I believe in their talking about.

00:35:54

Communication and the fact that because you've said something does not mean that you have communicated the responsibility is on you as the sender of the message so it's from a company organization perspective perspective.

00:36:07

Talking about the vision like it's your responsibility as the owner of the visionary to communicate the vision to the people that you work with and just because they can recite it back to you word for.

00:36:20

It doesn't mean that you have communicated it it doesn't mean that anything has gotten through and Ben mentions because he's got a couple kids in the podcast that he can tell his kids what he wants him to do and will be playing video games or whatever and then oh yeah sure dad what did I just say and they'll say it back word for word but they won't do it.

00:36:38

And all the other people who have kids that I meant.

00:36:43

Like you have to make sure that stuff is getting getting through and that's like there's no easy formula for that I think every single situation is different.

00:36:53

That's one of the things I got from reading this a second time by the way at the very beginning of this.

00:36:58

They talk about the very first thing that they did they used assessment tools to understand each other and I think they explicitly called out like the Myers Briggs.

00:37:08

But we use that Asian efficiency the Colby wealth dynamics.

00:37:14

Strengths finder would be another good one.

00:37:16

I think this stuff is so important and they don't really get into how that actually affects how the team actually interacts.

00:37:25

But like one of the things that we do at Asian efficiency we've got a monthly video call and one of the things that we we just did you know Tan goes through the team page and he highlights everybody's Colby score and he says okay so Mike's a seven as a friend.

00:37:38

The fact finder that means that when you're working with Mike he's saying this on the call is like when you're working with Mike you got to give him facts and you got to get him ahead of time and you can't just call him out on the spot in the middle of a meeting he's got to have time to think about stuff.

00:37:49

And if you can identify that sort of thing in any team or organization that you work with I think that makes the whole communication process way way easier.

00:38:00

I'm going to disagree on one thing when you said it's not easy or something not easy you said it's it's it's hard to to solve some of the problems with the middle management you were kind of talking about it.

00:38:13

You can keep I didn't want to interrupt you because you were on a good soap box going on there.

00:38:18

Elon Musk just did it.

00:38:23

I don't know if you guys seen what his letter that he just sent out to his employees did you see that I mean I see Mike chickens notings head I don't know if Joe you brought it up on the last theoretical episode.

00:38:33

Yeah that letter.

00:38:35

Yeah you now have to show notes that's why he's writing it down.

00:38:38

Marker dropped Marker dropped.

00:38:42

That letter cut through all the middle management said I don't want.

00:38:48

I don't want anybody to be I want all reported accidents to come to me period dot no questions you send me and that's what you need if you're going to have to cut.

00:38:59

If if if if you only have seven people you can communicate with but times when things you know things are breaking down at the trenches as we say in the corporate world in the trenches.

00:39:11

You must as a general go down to the trenches and say this is what we need this is why you're here.

00:39:19

I mean it's getting to the whole why and everything else but you need to be able to do that and that's what cuts through.

00:39:25

The crap cuts through the middle management cuts through because.

00:39:30

And actually even more so you need to do that once in a while to make people feel that they are working for it's the trust building it's the foundation.

00:39:40

It gives people trust the CEO the company currently work with most people don't trust middle management but they trust the CEO which is kind of odd.

00:39:49

Backwards it's completely backwards they trust the CEO and I've heard this several times talking to people they trust the CEO but the middle guys they're like yeah not so much.

00:40:01

And I'm sitting on how can that be I mean doesn't see a notice that nobody trusts his his executive staff it's just odd but.

00:40:10

It is something that needs to happen people need to trust that whole chain and if they can't then there's a problem.

00:40:17

Yeah I completely agree with with what you said and I think the Elon Musk example is a great example but I also think that that's kind of as a CEO like you got to know when the right times are to do that sort of thing it's.

00:40:31

Not a formula like if he's sending an email you know once a week to to everybody saying saying that you know do do this like I kind of loses it's it's a fact but because.

00:40:42

This is an email is coming from the CEO and he never does a sort of thing I think that effect is kind of amplified and I do think that that like the situation you're describing is kind of ideal and I don't have enough.

00:40:54

Big company experience to know how achievable the ideal is I have studied some big companies but most particularly Apple and understanding how Steve Jobs worked I think that most people definitely did not.

00:41:06

Like they feared the CEO but respect maybe is it a different term yeah.

00:41:10

Where like you know he would team would be working on the iPad design and he said make a thinner and we can't make a thinner and he'd throw it in the fish tank and see those bubbles you can make a thinner like.

00:41:22

From what I've heard from people who are no longer at the company like Scott for saw for example he was kind of the middle man and he would he would go into the meetings with Steve and be like here's the thing and then he'd take the the lumps and go back to team be like okay you know everything's going to be all right.

00:41:37

Yeah he said this this and this but I know how the how this is going to play out and we'll get our way in the end sort of a thing and that's kind of illustrated throughout the.

00:41:45

Creativity Inc book as well they don't they don't really explicitly give a bunch of different examples but there's the guys that essentially.

00:41:52

I'm forgetting their names now but they kind of partnered with Steve Jobs and then they were kind of like they knew that Steve Jobs respected them but still like a lot of his conduct they were just like where is this coming from and then they would have to take what he told them and go communicate that somehow to everybody that they worked with and maintain the motivation at Pixar to.

00:42:14

Crank out the next awesome new movie when they just been working 20 hour days every single like seven days a week for the last couple months to finish the latest toy story or whatever.

00:42:22

Yeah I would tell team so I work for big companies and they you know they have their goal setting stuff and they have all the whatever you want to call it each company calls a different personal business commitments or whatever the goal setting is.

00:42:39

For the company and my boss and my old lock he'd when I was running the team down in the there.

00:42:47

Would ask me so who's response they wanted ownership on every piece like all the projects you want ownership and I said.

00:42:53

I said no the team owns it and he goes but who do I beat up yes they're behind and I go me.

00:43:00

I said you come to me goes who do I give accolades to the you give accolades the team.

00:43:06

And I've I've used that as a lot of ways of a leadership because this fight is fun to the team book.

00:43:12

Really really requires a leader that buys into them.

00:43:17

If all the people underneath that leader buy into them but the leader doesn't it causes a problem so you need to have.

00:43:26

A leader that buys into the product and that gets to why I have a color jaded problem with this book I was hoping you would get here.

00:43:36

You got there.

00:43:37

I worked for a company called meant to graphics and we had a small office here in Minneapolis.

00:43:43

It's a sales company all right so first of all I'm in a sales organization which inherently trust is not a big thing in sales companies because it's all commission so everybody is like out for their own thing.

00:43:55

But I was the technical support for a sales team and I just joined the team two months ago.

00:44:02

The manager of the sales guy in my there's my dogs my manager in the sales guy ahead of me.

00:44:09

The my sales guy in that office comes down and brings in this box of books and says you guys are dysfunctional here is a book that's going to help you to be more functional.

00:44:22

Oh my gosh.

00:44:24

So here's a slap to the face.

00:44:28

Pretty much and I just been there like my and she goes Josh I know you've just been here for a little while so I'm not blaming you.

00:44:34

So I mean I couldn't make this up if I tried and I said I mean I just that's why it's so jaded it's kind of like if you get sick at a restaurant even if it's not the restaurant's fault but say you got.

00:44:48

Violently sick because of you you were exposed to somebody with the flu whatever and you go eat I couldn't eat Chinese food for three years.

00:44:56

Because I there was a virus that went around the school and that day we went out for lunch at a Chinese restaurant and I got sick that night and that for like three days.

00:45:04

I couldn't I couldn't even be around the smell of Chinese food and wasn't the Chinese food so this book is a bit jaded because this manager hands is the book and says you guys are dysfunctional.

00:45:15

We're going to go through this book to get you guys functional and didn't put herself in the boat.

00:45:21

She did not say hey guys it's my it's my fault too let's all work together and be a more functional team.

00:45:27

She said you and the minute you say that.

00:45:31

It's it's it it means that the trust isn't there even from you to the how do I listen to somebody who's telling me I'm dysfunctional when they are my boss and not lead it not leading with example.

00:45:46

And then we had to have meetings for six weeks as we went read the book together.

00:45:52

Really do they have no no no no she didn't read the book I just want to let you guys know she may have read the book at some point but she led the discussions for like one or two and then said you guys can handle the discussions from now on so.

00:46:06

This book is jaded simply because of the circumstances by which I've gotten I got this book and other than that this book is fine I like a lot of the things I'm on the board with Mike but it's again that Chinese food after you get sick.

00:46:21

So that's kind of the story of why I when when when you guys talked about it and I started pinging back and forth to Mike why I've had a problem with this book for so long.

00:46:33

Wow yeah that that makes sense we talked about that with another book was it who moved my cheese.

00:46:39

That was one of my my concerns with it was that this is the type of book that you could just blanket give to every employee in the organization.

00:46:46

You need to deal with change better but my issue with that book was that you're not doing anything as a leader when you just give them the book and say he read this and this book especially.

00:46:56

Like even in the narrative like what I love about how Patrick when see any wrote this book is that there is so much in the subtle.

00:47:03

Details that he uses like there's one point where Catherine is still new and she's talking about you guys have traditionally done this and somebody calls are out on it one of the onset she's like I'm.

00:47:14

You should not be using you you're part of this team now like calling out their boss and saying you got to take ownership of this.

00:47:21

But the situation you just described Josh like obviously you don't have the opportunity to do that and that stems from the fifth this function which the pyramid model I like this because.

00:47:31

When you're talking about how you going to build this stuff you've got to deal with them from bottom to top.

00:47:36

But you can also flip this.

00:47:38

What is around where you know if you're talking about how do you scale this thing and you've got to have buy in from the top.

00:47:44

The CEO has to be understanding they have to have the number five in attention to results so essentially.

00:47:50

I mean I've just got the story that you just share Josh but it sounds to me like in this particular situation what you've got is a.

00:47:56

Manager or somebody at the high level who is ignoring the results and they are hiding behind the status and the ego of their position and saying you guys need to fix this.

00:48:05

I don't have any issues you're never going to get anywhere.

00:48:10

No and yeah that's why that's why this whole thing is funny to talk to because I see it even at the company I'm currently working.

00:48:18

There's a saying at this company and actually it's the former I.B.

00:48:22

Meyers to so that I be I think it came over my name the beatings will continue tomorrow and.

00:48:28

I heard that before they actually say this in meetings.

00:48:33

I'm like wow wow I mean I don't even know where to go from there.

00:48:40

If you're going to be beating people up.

00:48:42

And they know that they're going to be being out I mean it's one thing if they know that they didn't they they screwed up.

00:48:48

It's an entirely different thing when like one of the guys I work with I bought him the engineer.

00:48:53

Have you seen the engineer mean going around see also wizard magician.

00:48:58

A person who performs exact science with or guesswork well it just has this whole thing and I got on this because he's the guy he's a savior he basically goes on programs.

00:49:09

And saves them but everybody banks on him and there's only one person of him and then they fight and right now I'm watching this fight go on as like five different programs like we're failing we need him and I'm just sitting there and he's like wants to help everybody because he does.

00:49:27

But he also doesn't want to get beat up getting back to the beatings will continue tomorrow improves when he's on a program that's already going knows diving and he's supposed to bring him up and he doesn't know he doesn't bring him up.

00:49:39

He'll get he'll get yelled at and said that he couldn't he failed.

00:49:43

You know is I'm jumping on the plane as it's going down.

00:49:47

That sounds like a good idea why but he will be because he's been able to pull out so many of them like.

00:49:54

But it's yeah it's this stuff I see in bigger to big company seem to have a lot of these functions every big company I've ever had has seemed to have what happened with the only way to solve it is to have pockets of good.

00:50:08

And if that makes any sense we have pocket sir team and that there's a like I did there's a gasket or manager that sits between them and does not let this.

00:50:19

Crap editing myself down in on the team because I know you guys are clean part where miss clean job much appreciated.

00:50:27

It's it's even though I really think you guys go over that one book that I mentioned on my last on the last podcast.

00:50:34

Even though it would require you guys to swear it.

00:50:38

It just came out this morning is recording.

00:50:40

Oh yeah I forgot I will put the I'll show him the book.

00:50:45

I've seen this in the list that Amazon throws at me.

00:50:50

You guys it is absolutely I've already read it once I need to read it again it's absolutely important but I'm not telling you guys the title it's a subtle art of.

00:50:58

Not blanking blank blank blank blank blank and people can look it up.

00:51:02

I'll link it up about that you can link it.

00:51:04

I don't know if that council uses dirty podcast then.

00:51:08

No because you have to read it it's not me saying it.

00:51:10

Oh that's what I'm going to go with.

00:51:12

Okay well and on the Amazon these stars so it's not nearly as bad but.

00:51:18

I don't I just I suspect it has to you have to have a manager that can gasket you because I don't I mean even if because if the company is too big you're not going to get everybody in that company to buy in.

00:51:30

And that's the thing that even even the fable I love the fable I love these new idea in business books of fables to tell stories.

00:51:38

Energy leadership is the one the go givers one there's a number of them that are.

00:51:43

Have these fables and they kind of tell the how the process works with stories and fables and I really like that.

00:51:49

You have you have to figure out ways to work in the disfivedest functions and the way I I found is to basically.

00:51:59

Have teams and be that gasket code or gasket code I mean taking a basket gasket management.

00:52:06

If that makes sense I don't know how I don't know if that I think that was coherent Joe was that coherent I think so I.

00:52:13

I'll go with it you know one one of the.

00:52:15

I'll tell a story here because I used to work for a virtual company and I left that company.

00:52:21

At the time I was thinking it was just because this is a bad match like the the group that I was.

00:52:27

Participating and I was pushing the envelope quite a bit and it just didn't didn't work out and.

00:52:33

I was asked to resign in that process so I resigned so it was technically on my end of things but.

00:52:39

As I was reading.

00:52:41

This book I couldn't help but try to understand that team because that's been.

00:52:47

Two years plus ago at this point two years ago and I was trying to relive some of that which is a little bit painful mentally.

00:52:55

But at the same time I also found it extremely helpful to try to understand it because what I eventually figured out was that.

00:53:01

There was a lot of.

00:53:03

There was a lot of trust building amongst our leadership team so there was a I reported directly to the CEO but even then.

00:53:12

I wasn't a part of like the the VP team so I wasn't on that level but there was a group of I think it was like 12 vice presidents.

00:53:20

That were a part of the company and.

00:53:22

That particular leadership team I had very little trust for.

00:53:28

Simply because I never really knew what they were going to think about the stuff I was kicking out and.

00:53:33

Working in the ag space and the type of products that I was helping create from a web standpoint were kind of.

00:53:40

I shouldn't say kind of they were cutting edge and they were really pushing the envelope quite a bit and.

00:53:45

It would have really accelerated our company.

00:53:47

But there's always a big but it comes with this.

00:53:53

I I quickly learned that there were a number of these VPs that were planning to retire soon.

00:53:59

And did not want to go through the process.

00:54:02

Of completely changing how the company operated and how they wanted to be innovative in the industry.

00:54:09

They wanted it to stay as it was.

00:54:12

For just a few more years so that they could retire and.

00:54:15

Cash out pretty well because they would be taking a risk and a bet.

00:54:18

With what we were trying to create.

00:54:21

And as a result it meant that I had zero motivation to actually keep going on it.

00:54:25

And I kept trying to figure out how to get through to this team.

00:54:28

And how to help them see that the path we were headed down was.

00:54:31

You know straight into the dirt instead of trying to.

00:54:34

Bring us up into something new and more modern.

00:54:37

And I continue to see that I continued to ask questions about it. I trusted my.

00:54:42

Supervisor in that scenario and it.

00:54:46

Ended up biting me in the rear because I was pushing it too hard so.

00:54:51

It's interesting but at the same time I could see that the very foundation of these five

00:54:56

dysfunctions was not there.

00:54:57

You know the direct team I was a part of and how it correlated to the leadership team.

00:55:01

It was just it was a problem and it just we needed to break ways.

00:55:05

Yeah well I think the situation that you described is.

00:55:10

The challenge for most people who read this sort of thing is.

00:55:15

How do I implement this with the teams that I'm a part of.

00:55:21

Where I'm not necessarily the one who has the authority to change how we do meetings and stuff

00:55:26

like that and I think that that's.

00:55:28

That's the hard part.

00:55:30

The challenge is to insert yourself into this process and get this cycle going in my opinion.

00:55:44

And so that's why my action item here.

00:55:46

Not sure if you if you saw this but my action item from this book is conflict in every meeting.

00:55:52

Because conflict is an indication that things are being worked through.

00:55:58

The artificial harmony which goes along with the second dysfunction the fear of conflict.

00:56:04

That's what most people are not projecting.

00:56:09

I totally understand that but a lot of the teams that I've been involved in I think that the

00:56:12

feeling is that as long as there's no disagreement in the meeting then everything is fine.

00:56:18

But really what I got from this book especially reading at the second time is that there are

00:56:25

always issues whether you see them or not there are issues.

00:56:28

So why not create the space where those things can be unearth and then we can actually work

00:56:33

through this thing and she's actually or Patrick Lynceone's got a term for this.

00:56:37

And I believe that Catherine brings it up in the book but it's called mining which is where

00:56:42

you're digging for that buried conflict.

00:56:44

Because I know a lot of teams that I've been a part of you could say well we're going to get

00:56:49

to the bottom of this dang it and who everybody share your issues and nobody's going to say anything.

00:56:54

So there's an art to digging those things out and drawing those things out and it was kind of

00:57:01

cool to see that as I read the story that this time all the different things that Catherine did

00:57:06

as the leader to just kind of facilitate the natural flow of the discussion.

00:57:11

So that these things got surfaced.

00:57:13

Maybe it's worth talking real quickly about how these dysfunctions kind of tie together because

00:57:18

they build on each other.

00:57:20

So you've got the absence of trust at the beginning that the ability or the belief that

00:57:26

you need to be invulnerable you need to protect yourself.

00:57:29

And Josh that's kind of what you were talking about when you're talking about all these different

00:57:32

big organizations these teams you got people who are just concerned about keeping their job.

00:57:36

You know in a sales organization in particular you're working on commission and if you can get

00:57:41

the sale or at least you can get credit for the sale even though somebody else maybe did a little

00:57:45

bit of the work on it like that's going to show up on your paycheck.

00:57:48

So the system is working against you at that point.

00:57:50

There's another way of saying saying it even if you're not in commission because somebody like

00:57:55

well I'm not commission you get paid for putting out fires somebody goes even if you start them

00:58:01

you get credit for putting out fires even if you start the fire.

00:58:05

Wow yeah and that happens a lot at companies too it's like Joe saved everything because he did

00:58:12

the work and he solved the problem.

00:58:14

He finally saw Star Wars and the world was right.

00:58:17

Nobody gives him credit nobody gives him blaming for you know Joe you're 30 years old and you

00:58:23

have not seen Star Wars yet.

00:58:25

I mean they just go after the positive thing and only reason why I bring that up is when you said

00:58:31

your action item I want to ask I hated to rail us a minute but when you asked said I need to

00:58:36

bring conflict into every meeting does that also mean every podcast because I will say your

00:58:42

guys are much more interesting when you guys disagree than when you guys agree on everything.

00:58:47

To be determined but to be determined.

00:58:50

You're putting that on your plate Mike.

00:58:51

All right no I mean but I mean and if you need to use the Star Wars every time but until he sees

00:58:59

it then then we'll have to come up with something else but.

00:59:02

Because there's things that Joe and I when we talk we don't agree with and we have that we

00:59:08

hash them out on theoretical accountability and it becomes an interesting topic my wife actually

00:59:13

likes those conversations quite a bit and I just was kind of curious on your thoughts on podcasting.

00:59:18

I mean I know you don't want to insult guests I mean me you can insult I don't care but like if

00:59:23

you like if you have if you like say you have David Allen on your podcast you don't really want to

00:59:29

get into the argument over his love of lotus notes.

00:59:32

I mean I make sure I went up I might bring that one up.

00:59:36

Yeah that one in particular I feel strongly about but you're right I probably would avoid

00:59:42

conflict in that particular situation.

00:59:44

I think it kind of depends on the desired outcome of the the meeting quote unquote.

00:59:49

I don't view podcast necessarily as as meetings but maybe I should maybe I should bring more

00:59:53

conflict to to book and I've actually taken the contrary in a poor approach so when some

00:59:59

meetings with my designers or and team members when they were all everybody was agreeing with

01:00:03

each other I decided to take the counterpoint just and then they had to argue it and show

01:00:08

our everything up because Joe will tell you I'm pretty what is it?

01:00:12

I don't know the word quirky pretty quick I'm quirky but I'm pretty quick at coming up with

01:00:17

counterpoints on things and quick-witted I guess but I don't really want to give myself that much

01:00:22

credit but I can come up with the counterpoints and and then they're like oh well yeah maybe and

01:00:28

then they start thinking about it and then they start verbalizing their agreements and trying to

01:00:31

get that that dialogue going and then after the meeting one of my one of the guys who works

01:00:36

because Josh you didn't really believe that did you? No I just wanted to see what would happen

01:00:41

when if you throw in that you're one of those frustrating people in the meeting.

01:00:45

Well no but not oh I only do that if it's everybody agreeing with everybody the entire meeting

01:00:50

the entire if we have a meeting on say should josey star wars and everybody's like yes why is this

01:00:57

the topic of every example because it's just an easy one it's an easy one but if everybody

01:01:03

agrees with josey star wars and maybe I come out and go and it's it's not Star Wars it's something

01:01:09

else more important than Star Wars but I may go what if he doesn't see Star Wars what what

01:01:15

problems does that create just to study people zero actually it does take problems because two

01:01:22

of your two co-hosts and we might have to get drew on board on this yeah two of your

01:01:27

really you gotta rope him into okay you're gonna get hit by I may even call your wife and go hey

01:01:33

I'm hoping she'll at least take my side here I'm gonna take my entire deep dive session at

01:01:41

max stock and show Star Wars okay I'll do that I'll do that I'm the other option is not about that

01:01:50

the other option is is that I just brought your wife with bacon you know that that works now

01:01:56

you're hitting low low blow I would I'm here's here I will promise us on a podcast not a mind so

01:02:03

it may or may not count okay I will make you a slab of custom bacon if you watch the first episode

01:02:10

of Star Wars five pounds you get to pick the smoking cure I will make this for you you're

01:02:17

pick whatever it is you watch Star Wars is there a frame on this or is it just open I would I would

01:02:24

I would like it before the end of the year I'd like it in 2017 2017 wow okay how long is this

01:02:30

sad and this is 12 week years to make this happen and this is this is episode four right

01:02:36

that I'm supposed to see that's the one you're talking about the one that's called Star Wars

01:02:42

not the one not not not the star wars story not Star Wars episode one the Phantom Menace

01:02:50

it's called Star Wars a new hope I believe a new hope I had they started subtitling that one or

01:02:56

do they still just call it well I mean Star Wars a new hope all right you will know it because

01:03:02

it has well all the openings have can I just search for like Star Wars original or something

01:03:08

like that and get there yep yes yes you can do that too I you see it by the end of the year and for

01:03:14

Christmas I will bring you a slab of bacon and in in that way I don't have to bribe your wife with

01:03:21

the bacon to force you to watch Star Wars you can just do it on your own okay all right I appreciate

01:03:26

that sorry sorry back to the back of the function stuff well I just want to ask you I just want

01:03:31

I know but I just wanted to ask Mike about how does that work when you're doing podcasts or how

01:03:36

does that work when you're there's the dysfunctions the team but there's also the just

01:03:41

I'm gonna say dysfunctions of a dialogue really if there's no relationship how does that apply to

01:03:49

say you're doing an interview or say you're doing a conversation with your wife or because

01:03:55

we're all married so we can say wives or and kids and kids what what have you how does that all work

01:04:01

what if I know that I can say that you have a mission statement for your family what does

01:04:06

your if your wife goes I don't really like that mission statement I would this is why

01:04:10

how does that all work in a family dynamic because my daughter's 10 and she has some special needs

01:04:16

as you some people may or may not know if they don't listen to our other podcast or your other

01:04:21

podcast Joe not our other podcast your other podcast it's not yours it's not yours it's yours

01:04:25

I do all the mic I just you do all the work

01:04:31

my daughter has opposite but effectively they diagnosed with lots of things and one of them was

01:04:35

oppositional the fight disorder which meant that she argued about everything like everything was a

01:04:39

conflict even going to the bathroom in various basic and human nature things how does that work

01:04:46

with normally I hate to be normal kids but relatively you know when it not special needs children

01:04:53

how does that work with your kids how does that work with your family do you let your kids say no

01:04:59

that kind of thing sorry go ahead gotcha no that that's a good good distinction because

01:05:05

when I say conflict in every meeting I guess I'm viewing this through the lens of actual quote

01:05:12

unquote official meetings because I have this thing where I just hate meetings and I hate wasting time

01:05:19

and so if there is not a clear purpose for the meeting it's very hard for me to stay engaged

01:05:28

and so really I guess when I'm talking about bringing conflict to meetings if I'm going to get

01:05:33

quote unquote roped into a meeting there is going to be some conflict I will bring it so that there

01:05:39

is some progress being made and as that pertains to a family I would say that that is going to be

01:05:45

important my wife and I have a we call it our family meeting but we we meet Sunday nights after

01:05:50

the kids go to bed and we've we use a sauna because that's what she likes to use and she keeps track

01:05:54

of the things that we need to resolve or we need to make decisions on throughout the week we compare

01:05:59

calendars we go over the budget once a month like that's the place for that to happen

01:06:02

and I I do think that there needs to be conflict in those meetings as well because

01:06:08

when you're talking about as a family maybe it's just my situation but I'm projecting probably not

01:06:15

where the tendency can be to decide something and be like okay this is what we're going to do and

01:06:21

what you're saying Josh from here and you're right is that what do you do when somebody doesn't really

01:06:27

they've got a differing viewpoint like how do you resolve that that you can't just say we're

01:06:31

going to go in this direction and assume that everybody is going to follow rank and file and be yes

01:06:35

all on board one of the things that they say in the fight dysfunctions of a team is that there's

01:06:39

got to be way in before there's buy in and I think that conflict is essentially where people can weigh

01:06:44

in and even if the decision that collectively is reached is not what you personally want the way

01:06:53

I view that is that you're okay with it because at least you've been heard but in a family dynamic

01:06:58

essentially what I want to avoid is me being the person who is making the decisions I want to

01:07:04

include my wife in that process because she can say again going back to communication she can say

01:07:08

yes I'm a board with this decision but if she's not really on board with the decision if there is

01:07:14

disagreement and there's not the alignment the two horse rule for not pulling in the same direction

01:07:18

it's going to be evident pretty quick and a lot of it is trial and error adjust and repair like

01:07:24

we've definitely made mistakes in that that sense but then the going back to like how do we how do

01:07:30

we fix this I think one of the things that you were touching on Josh when you were saying that you

01:07:35

sometimes take the opposite viewpoint another way to do that would be the whole idea of like the

01:07:39

post mortem but doing it before the thing actually happens it's called a pre mortem I forget which

01:07:43

book I read that from but I actually just did that in one of our meetings for the

01:07:47

ministry team that we're involved with at our church we're planning this big outreach and we're

01:07:51

going to show up at this apartment complex and we're going to have like this big block party free

01:07:56

food free games free everything for all the people that live there and we're going through and we're

01:08:02

planning all the details and yeah this is going to be awesome and then I ask a question like okay

01:08:05

so what could make this be a failure you know what are the things that could make this not go the

01:08:11

way we want it to and you can kind of see people's focus like oh you know I didn't think about that

01:08:19

I just assumed everything was going to work well but when you start thinking that way you get a

01:08:24

lot of different you see a lot of things that you wouldn't see traditionally and I think that

01:08:30

that's the the value is understanding the different perspectives of different viewpoints and that

01:08:34

gives you a more complete picture but I think that tactically maybe there's different ways that

01:08:39

that you can do that and this is all like I said kind of trial and error I don't know that

01:08:44

bringing conflict to my family meetings is going to be a good thing I guess we will find out

01:08:50

that's a follow-up I I doesn't have to be I'm sorry I just fistic up I just didn't see that no I

01:08:56

know agreed there's no there's no need to be fisticuffs but along with the conflict what about the

01:09:01

kids I mean you're you're I don't mind my daughter's 10 I think your kids in your kids are older right

01:09:07

too you're not you're not the Joe show of everybody's under five right nine seven five and three okay

01:09:15

do you let the kids have a say in some of this stuff I mean not necessarily budget I understand

01:09:22

that but I mean like that'd be bad I like we have that might be a bad idea you have a whole

01:09:27

bunch of fidget spinners I heard a story of there's a big gaming convention in origins called

01:09:36

origins it's second largest in the country and three two guys brought five giant duffel bags of

01:09:43

premium fidget spinners and they rented a small booth space like the smallest booth space they had

01:09:48

they just loaded up the fidget spinners on the in the bucket and said you get to drop something

01:09:53

for like 20 bucks or whatever they sold out within two days the con is four days they sold out

01:09:59

four giant duffel bags in two days so what I mean but so you would you don't want that but the kids

01:10:07

do they like we have let all yeah my daughter choose sometimes restaurants choose sometimes

01:10:13

things because we're like we don't care not cares not the right word we we're allowing her to have

01:10:19

those choices so that she can learn those you're indifferent or it's not it whatever choices matter

01:10:25

I guess it in different works but do you let that with the kids do you like I mean how does that

01:10:31

their conflict I mean because I'm more interested because there's a lot of people like you too who

01:10:36

listen to your both your podcast that are solo panomers or something so they don't have this

01:10:41

team dynamic but I'm trying to figure out how this book relates to interpersonal skills besides

01:10:47

just the team in a corporate setting yeah that's a that's a really good point and I guess my kids are

01:10:55

kind of like they're they're younger and they're getting they're getting older so they haven't

01:10:58

gotten to the point where they're making like really really serious important decisions I'm

01:11:03

going to go out with this person or anything like that yet but one of the things that we've done is

01:11:08

we've tried to involve them in the decision making process and then I think a big part of it is

01:11:15

listening honestly because the tendency can be that especially if you work outside of the home

01:11:22

like you've got all these different responsibilities you come home and you just like that's when you're

01:11:25

going to relax and if you're not careful you can just tune out and you can miss a lot of real

01:11:30

important details but I and like I said my kids are young and young enough that they will still

01:11:37

respond when I say you know how was your day today what did you do you know and from there a lot

01:11:43

of conversations can be can be launched into like well this happened and it made me feel this way

01:11:50

well you know what did you do about that sort of thing it kind of gets back into the discussion

01:11:55

on the seven-habit style affected people that we were talking about because he's got a story in

01:11:58

there where he's trying to essentially lead his son into a specific role and then he gets the

01:12:05

epiphany that you know maybe he's not a baseball player maybe we should let him decide his own

01:12:10

thing and he kind of finds his own thing and he's really successful at it and so that is a challenge

01:12:16

I don't know that I have a formula for that but I will say that my wife and I are very cognizant

01:12:21

of that and we're trying to be careful that we don't just say like well this is what we do like

01:12:28

each one of our kids is individuals the nine-year-old is like athletics comes really easy for him

01:12:35

he's a natural basketball player natural soccer player like he loves it our seven-year-old not so

01:12:42

much so it is a challenge to figure out like what makes each one of them tick what are the things

01:12:48

that bring them life what are the things that they love doing our seven-year-old is very artistic

01:12:53

so while the nine-year-old would grab a basketball and go shoot hoops for three hours the seven-year-old

01:12:58

would be content just to color with his colored pencils and he's he's an amazing artist actually

01:13:04

or build a Lego or whatever so I don't know how to answer that question on a podcast it's

01:13:11

necessarily but I will say that it is something that I'm aware of and to a certain degree worried

01:13:16

about because I don't want to mess it up I think all of us and I mean Joe is still farther

01:13:22

farther behind us because I have a 10 you have a nine and Joe's is high oldest is a four yes but

01:13:29

I think all of us don't want to screw up our kids I think we both we all three of us realize that

01:13:39

we can and so we want to try to do this and all I all I wanted to bring up was because if you

01:13:47

say if you give your kids permission to unfiltered conflict yeah they're gonna be like no no no I

01:13:56

don't like that I don't like that I don't you mean this bedtime thing not a fan brushing the teeth

01:14:01

not so much taking a shower I'll wait till the dirt cakes

01:14:07

these are the three bit off

01:14:09

yeah but I mean the the achieving results they focus on achieving results I don't know I don't

01:14:18

know if this even works for a family but the focus on achievement of collective results is

01:14:22

as a family is kind kind of interesting somebody once told me that and I don't know if this makes

01:14:29

sense but a family is the only form of socialism that works because you're all working for the

01:14:39

collective good of the family and you're not like I mean that the whole point of socialism

01:14:46

in in Marxist view was that we all work together to make our country the best country but that

01:14:53

really doesn't work when you add 10 million people but if you have a family of five six eight maybe

01:15:00

it works and and maybe yeah maybe the dysfunctions also show up in that sense too because if you have

01:15:07

a small team to round it back to the five dysfunctions if you have a small team it's easier for all of

01:15:12

you to see a vision easier all of you to see where you need to go and I don't know sorry for

01:15:20

derailing but no no that's a that's a great point and actually on our list is something that my

01:15:26

wife recommended which is another Patrick Lincey Yoni book and I'm trying to pull it up right now

01:15:33

it is three big questions for a frantic family so I think that there's probably there's probably a

01:15:42

a version of this I haven't I personally have not read that book but I'm guessing that there's

01:15:49

some of the principles from the five dysfunctions because this is actually a derivative of the five

01:15:54

temptations of a CEO and so I think that there's probably definitely like elements of the five

01:16:01

dysfunctions that work with a family but there's probably some things that are different that

01:16:05

Patrick Lincey Yoni who has taken the time to think through and and I don't necessarily

01:16:10

understand off the off the cuff but I do think that the cycle in some way shape or form still

01:16:15

exists inside of side of any team you've got to have the well number one the absence of trust like

01:16:22

specifically talking about kids what I am trying to do is make sure that when my kids are in high

01:16:29

school and they're faced with these life choices that they trust me enough that I have made enough

01:16:35

deposits in them by that point that they can feel comfortable talking to me about things and not

01:16:41

in a way that I'm just going to be like well this is what you do is like you fix this because I do

01:16:45

have a tendency to do that but just being able to have a conversation and know that they're not

01:16:51

being judged and give them like you were talking about Josh the the rain to the ability to make

01:16:57

their own decisions at that point they also have to like the second dysfunction they have to know

01:17:03

that when they talk to me about stuff that there may be conflict that's okay they can't have that

01:17:08

fear of conflict there can't be the artificial harmony I think that there is definitely artificial

01:17:12

harmony in a lot of families where just like well the kids aren't complaining so everything's okay

01:17:18

no when your kids are quiet that's when you know things are wrong and then I think that that kind

01:17:24

of leads into the rest of it though because if you have those conversations and I think more is

01:17:29

just creating the culture for those conversations to take place then it is formally having the

01:17:34

conversation to be like okay at monday at 7 p.m. you're going to download all of your issues and

01:17:38

we're going to fix this you know but having the ability or the feeling that they can do that at

01:17:43

any time that's when they come in on board with the family mission and they the third dysfunction

01:17:49

of lack of commitment that's how you you overcome come that in theory anyways you know like I said

01:17:53

kids kids get older kind of figuring this out and a lot of it is trial and error just in repair

01:18:00

but then you've got the number four the avoidance of accountability like if you've laid the groundwork

01:18:05

I think that that's a lot easier to uphold a standard and anybody who has kids knows that you

01:18:11

can't just say for most kids like just do this especially as they get older they're going to question

01:18:16

why why do I need to do this why do I need to make my bed and having a good answer for those things

01:18:23

requires that foundation of trust and the ability to work through the conflict and then they got

01:18:29

the commitment and the accountability and then you can look at the results and you can say okay

01:18:36

this is and that's also where you can start to work backwards too like one of the things that

01:18:40

my wife did just this week with my kids is they brainstormed all the different things they want

01:18:45

to do this summer and they made like a summer bucket list okay so those are the results we want

01:18:50

to achieve and I was even just last night talking to my nine-year-old like he doesn't understand

01:18:55

all the financial stuff but he understands that I work hard so that some days I don't have to work

01:19:02

hard and we are able to do the things on the bucket list what makes what makes me able to do

01:19:08

that is the fact that I am going hard at these things for these these specified time slots and

01:19:16

he made the observation just a casual conversation he's like yeah it's really sad how some people

01:19:21

they just don't really understand what they're working for and so they end up working all the

01:19:26

time I'm like whoa revelation from the nine-year-old they do have those from time to time these brilliant

01:19:34

things and you're like wow did you get whoa yeah that's good I mean there's a put that

01:19:43

out of wheat and send it what's the what was the show there was the kids say the darnest things

01:19:49

or something like that was a show for a while but they're they they do say things like man

01:19:55

dad that guy is fat I mean things like that where you're like oh please no don't say those things

01:19:59

but they also say these brilliant ones that you're just like you're you're not in can I record this

01:20:06

just like I want this for later yeah Josh I really appreciate you making the the connection to families

01:20:13

because one of the things the only thing I wrote down for action items was head knowledge question

01:20:19

mark because I don't really lead or work with I mean I've got the church thing but I'm not really

01:20:25

leading your podcast you're the leader of that's and this is partially why I'm glad you brought it

01:20:31

up because it's it's more of a relational connection like taking taking some of the

01:20:39

the aspects that make a successful team and making the correlation to a relationship

01:20:45

and how do I have an interaction with another person another human being and a lot of this

01:20:51

applies to developing a deep relationship with someone else if you think about like our marriages

01:20:58

that's a lot of the same thing like all of these are something that we all go through in our marriage

01:21:04

so I am glad that you made that connection I'm not really sure what to do with it right now other

01:21:08

than just be aware of it and just try to apply that I don't have anything specific that I think

01:21:13

I want to nail down on that but it's it's something I think it's at least interesting one thing one

01:21:17

thing I think is really cool about this whole discussion is one of the items I put on here was

01:21:23

the definition of politics and most people think of office politics like corporate organizations

01:21:28

but the definition of politics from this book is when people choose their words and actions

01:21:32

based on how they want others to react rather than based on what they really think and I think that

01:21:37

that totally applies to families it totally applies to any team or organization so that's kind of my

01:21:43

not necessarily an action item but talking about how do you apply this to the teams and

01:21:48

organizations that you work with number one I want there to be conflict I want there to be

01:21:51

resolution of things number two I want to avoid politics according to this definition on every

01:21:57

team that I am involved with correct but I don't how do I say this I don't think politics are bad

01:22:05

we use it as a bad term we use it and in that context maybe it's more bad I don't more bad is

01:22:11

bad English but but politics I mean the the definition that all right let me say the definition

01:22:19

that it said of getting people saying things or doing things depending on other people's opinion

01:22:27

is very very important in culture like if I you and I both are in Toastmasters if we go in

01:22:34

and at the speech contest wearing holy jeans and a t-shirt that says Metallica on it and

01:22:41

not showered in four days we may want to do that but you are doing exactly what you're taking a

01:22:51

shower you're playing I hate to say play in the game but you're doing the the things that need to be

01:22:59

for to make other people comfortable there are times when I I swear a lot but there are times when I

01:23:07

don't like on this podcast and various other things where I know that that's not the appropriate

01:23:11

response and I'm not doing that because that's not lying to who I am and I've learned this through

01:23:18

speaking I take public speaking through Michael Port and he talks about dials and I would agree

01:23:26

that you don't want to not be you but there's ways to dial things left and right not left and right

01:23:32

politics wise but left and right I'm I'm trying to describe my hands turning dials very different

01:23:38

directions that hey I'm in this so I need to be this way oh I am here I need to be that way

01:23:46

they're not they are changing your dials based on your audience and I don't think that's a problem

01:23:52

I have a hard time with that part of that definition yeah no I totally get what you're saying like

01:23:58

there's societal and cultural norms that you are going to adapt to and I wouldn't necessarily

01:24:02

classify that as politics the thing that stood out to me from this definition maybe I'm reading

01:24:08

this wrong but it's when people choose their words and actions based on how they want others to react

01:24:12

rather than based on what they really think so I think when I read this I've that part of the

01:24:18

equation is missing so you are essentially a lemming in the cultural or societal machine where

01:24:25

you are conditioned to respond a certain way and you don't even think about responding the way that

01:24:30

you actually feel I appreciate your restraint and not swearing on the podcast but recognizing that

01:24:36

that is in you like that's an important piece like you have to have the authenticity of this is

01:24:44

who I really am and that has to weigh into the equation at some point even if like you said there

01:24:48

are certain arenas as this plays out where you are choosing to dial that back and act a certain way

01:24:54

correct but I will tell you this if if it comes to my daughter's safety I will act in any way possible

01:25:00

including yelling at the top of my lungs so it makes it feel like I'm scared so that she senses that

01:25:09

oh crap maybe I should not be running out into the middle of the street without my dad who knew

01:25:15

that kind of thing so I I'd be careful when people sit there because then people use it as

01:25:22

excuse to be a not nice person I use another word family where oh I'm just being honest when I

01:25:30

tell you you're you're ugly I'm just being honest with myself yeah I'm sitting there going no keep

01:25:37

your mouth no no there's no need now if my wife comes up to me and my wife has learned to come up

01:25:43

to me and go does this I mean that just makes me look she never has ever asked me that but do you

01:25:47

like distress and I say or this outfit and I say no I say I don't like it because of xy and c

01:25:52

I have she's learned now that she only asks me when she really wants my opinion because I'll tell

01:25:58

it but do you know what I mean I struggle with the ever but the idea that everybody needs to be

01:26:05

honest all the time I used to be I would I would get in trouble it worked a lot my performance

01:26:12

reviews would be a lot of you shouldn't have said that you were going to get an a plus and now

01:26:19

you're going to get a c yes yes but the dials the dials I mean not even just bison society norms you

01:26:28

know that talking to your child in certain ways gets certain responses be careful with not with

01:26:34

using honesty as a weapon I guess is the right word here is what I'm trying because you can turn

01:26:41

that knob all the way to the one side and really really hurt a lot of people even though it's honest

01:26:48

yeah no I totally agree and I think that the the balancing part of that is the fact that I mean

01:26:55

the title of the book five dysfunctions of a team like the team focusing on the results of the team

01:27:03

again not having a lot of corporate experience but at least the way I view this is that that is

01:27:10

what balances a lot of things like you can say well yeah I've got to be honest but if you

01:27:15

spilling your guts in the wrong arena about the fact that you can't work with person x

01:27:22

that's not helping the team then I would say like that's a very simple barometer to measure

01:27:29

whether the response is appropriate is like how does this how does me doing this thing acting in

01:27:33

this way whether that that self-interest dial is turned all the way up or just a little bit like

01:27:39

how does that actually help the team is a is a very important piece and I think that the point

01:27:43

that the book is trying to make is that if you go through the five dysfunctions a lot of times you

01:27:49

can not offer stuff because you you artificially like you might say well I don't want to cause

01:27:58

a big fight I don't want to focus on the negative I just want to be a team player but if you never

01:28:04

like take care of your individual stuff if that never gets resolved then you really you really

01:28:09

are being selfish it's your own fear of conflict that is keeping the team from achieving the resolution

01:28:16

we didn't really get into all of the characters which is which is fine but there was one person

01:28:20

in here which I thought was really interesting which is Carlos and the kind of the description

01:28:25

of Carlos is that he spoke very little he listened intently he was low maintenance he was trustworthy

01:28:30

he was the guy who would show up and just try to keep the piece and he would work really hard and

01:28:35

he would put out the fire he's like you were talking about but when it came time to the meetings he

01:28:40

really wouldn't say anything and like this is the kind of guy that you want to know what he has to

01:28:45

say you want to know what those problems are so that you can resolve them and obviously at the

01:28:50

beginning like the team is so dysfunctional that he's not saying anything so we've been going out

01:28:56

this for a while we have let's let's switch over to author style so what do you guys think about

01:29:03

the whole process of having a fable at the beginning and then wrapping it up at the end

01:29:08

I like the fables I've been enjoying these books that have these fables I like I think energy

01:29:15

leadership does this I think in a better way in the sense of it does a part of the fable and then

01:29:20

does a lesson and if I remember right dysfunction was all I read this a couple years ago and I have

01:29:26

all my notes yeah it's all tied together in one like you get the whole fable and then it's the

01:29:30

full explanation yes and I would rather have broken that out of having some of the story

01:29:37

having the lessons from that story having the sum of the story having lessons from that story

01:29:44

energy leadership does this the way we're working ain't working I think it's called or the way we're

01:29:49

working isn't working to also yes is also does this where they do that because the story is what ties

01:29:56

it together and if we could learn as they'd learned and bring out the lessons I thought would have

01:30:01

been a better play but this was also future I mean this was what 10 years ago this book was written

01:30:07

15 years ago yeah at the at the end of the book there's kind of an afterward of you know since I

01:30:13

wrote this the events of September 11th happened so that's obviously 2001 yeah so I this is probably

01:30:21

in the forefront of doing this kind of deal where you're trying to use a story which is so funny

01:30:25

because it's a cyclical right asops fables and all the grim fails tables we're all trying to teach

01:30:30

people lessons and through a story and now then we went to all these business books where they like

01:30:36

oh here's 400 pages where of all the examples of all the project management badness and now

01:30:43

they're going back to this idea of a fable which I really enjoy I really really enjoy

01:30:47

yeah I really like the the fable that's a good point that you bring up Josh I never really thought

01:30:54

about that as an option I guess of interjecting the descriptions of the five dysfunctions like as

01:31:00

they come up I'm not sure that I would prefer that I could definitely see value in that but I

01:31:09

actually really like how the story just keeps going essentially and I've got this book in I've

01:31:18

got a hardcover version which I have read a couple times I've also got the audible version and so

01:31:23

the this the fable part of this is something that I can see myself going back to over and over again

01:31:29

and having it all in like that section of the book all one specific time I could see that being

01:31:36

beneficials I want to review a lot of the stuff because like I said when I read it the second time

01:31:40

a lot of the stuff I picked up on was not like the major five dysfunctions but all the different

01:31:46

little interactions I guess I really understood that better the second time that Patrick Lincey

01:31:52

Oni really has an understanding of these different dynamics and you see that in some of the details

01:31:57

and he doesn't even bother to call it out a lot of times but I think that you could you could

01:32:03

read this listen to it whatever over and over and over again and you could pick up something

01:32:06

different every time also something very entertaining about the audiobook version by the way is that

01:32:12

one of the characters Martin I believe is British and so the reader does a really bad impression

01:32:17

of British guy with every talks yeah but yeah I really like the the format yeah I'm a fan of it

01:32:25

I have been enjoying the books I've been picking up lately they have the the story side of it maybe

01:32:31

that's Josh's fault with putting me on fiction at night but I I really liked it Patrick's got a

01:32:38

very easy to read style what was the I read another one I grabbed it here earlier the three

01:32:43

signs of a miserable job which is one that I read when I was a part of that virtual company I talked

01:32:50

about earlier so it was it's interesting to me that they wanted to bring that up and yet I felt

01:32:54

like it was right in the middle of that but it's it that style is one that I really enjoy so that

01:33:03

all of that leading me to a rating of sorts I ended up putting this one at a 4-0 there are a lot of

01:33:10

things in it that I love and I love the story part of it and it seemed like whenever I got past that

01:33:16

and got to the non-fiction side of it like the non-fable piece it seemed like he rushed through

01:33:21

it and didn't really explain near as much which is probably okay but it still frustrated me a

01:33:26

little bit I wish he would have spelled some things out a little in a little more detailed so that

01:33:30

I could flush it out mentally in some in more intricate ways but he didn't do that and I really

01:33:38

wanted him to there you go so the real question here is did you rate it a 4-0 just because Josh is

01:33:46

on the podcast it would take you to task if you did it for no no I try to be as honest as I can

01:33:54

with it okay I don't have that much power remember I just show up with a mic if I don't like what he

01:34:00

says I edited out so yeah there there is so much stuff on the edited floor from theoretical

01:34:07

accountability you guys don't even know you guys need a besides there you go all right Josh you want

01:34:15

to go next all right from a leadership perspective so I have to give this to ratings because the

01:34:22

context in which it was given to me is like a two just from a from a from a PTSD kind of mode but

01:34:34

from a context of what it's talking about and the message it's giving I probably am with Joe it's a

01:34:41

3.5 to 4 because I totally agree that a lot of teams suffer from this my problem is is that he

01:34:50

really does not give you much in the way of how to solve them especially when it comes to larger

01:34:57

larger teams like I work at in big companies where there's 150 people putting out a chip

01:35:04

or what have you how do we get that going in that kind of venue yeah that's a that's a very

01:35:12

valid point and to be honest I'm not sure that that formula could exist in a book format I think

01:35:19

there's a lot of little subtext that like I mentioned I picked up when I read it the second time that

01:35:24

I missed the the first time it's no secret that this is one of my favorite books I definitely empathize

01:35:29

with your situation how it was given to you though Josh and I have learned because I will go to half

01:35:36

price books every once in a while and they'll have like multiple copies of this whenever I see that

01:35:40

I buy them all and I give it out to people who I believe are interested in this sort of thing but

01:35:46

I've I've learned to even be selective and who I give this book to just as like this is an awesome

01:35:52

book not projecting it as you've got a dysfunction you need to you need to fix but I also totally

01:35:59

understand how that that sort of message can can come across as well but I absolutely love this book

01:36:05

I like it even better after reading it the second time and this is one of those books that I think

01:36:13

every time I read it I will get something else out of it the same cannot be said for something

01:36:18

like getting things done and for that reason you mean you don't want to talk about Lotus notes

01:36:23

you don't want to talk about I mean come on man no no a lot of actually a lot of the books that

01:36:30

we cover on on book or my feel like they are very prescriptive and they present their views

01:36:37

and once you understand like the main ideas you understand the message which is why a book like

01:36:43

getting things done you've got the essence of the book in the first 75 pages and then he spends the

01:36:49

next 300 pages telling you what he told you to make it stick I really enjoy this book because that

01:36:56

isn't the format it's kind of you you're right it's not prescriptive but I think that that would

01:37:01

completely change how I feel about the book as well because as soon as you make a prescriptive

01:37:05

you've added another 400 pages on how do you actually have a productive meeting how do you work

01:37:10

with other people that you don't like that sort of thing how do you balance all these different

01:37:14

personalities I absolutely love this and it's probably no secret that I'm going to give it five

01:37:21

stars not at all I knew it was going to be a five star book from you before we even started

01:37:26

when you say I absolutely love this book yeah tweet before you even read the book as the

01:37:33

greeing I'm like yeah it's a bit of fiber I actually I'm thinking about starting a betting

01:37:40

league on bookworms rating process the only problem is is that you guys would look at it and

01:37:44

then try to throw off the numbers and that's the only you would probably have me build it and

01:37:49

I'll skew it we could show the algorithm so I know I know I know but you guys really haven't

01:37:58

read any books that are low that's the one thing I would like to see you guys I mean I know what

01:38:02

you call low I mean two or shallows I said we had a we had some like 2.5s at one point yeah

01:38:11

but shallows but the problem is you guys tried to make it sound good you're like and then try

01:38:15

sit there and I Joe was it a good Booker and I just don't read it I'm like okay but I'm just

01:38:21

trying to understand you were sitting there you guys were talking it all up and I'm just like

01:38:27

well there were some decent points but you really had to dig to find them get a dig these fine

01:38:31

and then see everybody likes to talk about the good work is to tease out the good information

01:38:37

from these bad books so that the listener doesn't have to go through the process of reading them

01:38:42

and if the good I have a method read along so I have a meta book for you guys have you guys

01:38:46

thought about doing tools of titans Tim Ferriss's notes from the podcast then you guys are doing

01:38:52

the podcast on the podcast on the book on the podcast and it's like this weird cyclical thing I

01:38:58

just thought of that as an idea medicine you imagine the show notes for that one no no no

01:39:05

Joe doesn't have enough to do so we absolutely need to do this I mean building a robot to auto

01:39:13

know for the like the episode I picked that as one of my gap books one time and read the first

01:39:19

couple and I'm like there is no way it's like six hundred pages what you do is you just go and

01:39:24

find the stuff that your topics you're interested in he had to release a different index because

01:39:28

they didn't want to release the index that really would work so he released a 30 page index as a pdf

01:39:35

which index based on topics so you can go hey I want to learn about a knee fitness and you can go

01:39:41

look up knee and then it will tell you the different people that had knee suggestions it's actually

01:39:46

a really good index if you get that's cool I'll have to look at that yeah because that would make way

01:39:50

more sense in the way it's broken down in the actual book absolutely so I will let you guys

01:39:55

finish up and close up yeah so next book's coming up the next one's my choice the power of a positive

01:40:01

no by William Yuri this is one of those that I feel like has been talked about quite a bit and I

01:40:07

have no idea why I've not read it and it's time for me to read it so I'm gonna drag you along with

01:40:15

me Mike all right fair enough my book after that is actually one that I started reading and we

01:40:22

totally have to talk about this one it is the art of thinking clearly by Rolf DeBelly are you

01:40:27

familiar with the concept of a cognitive bias yes okay so this is a 300 page book which is broken

01:40:33

into about a hundred three page chapters each one covering a different cognitive bias whoa

01:40:38

yeah is it biased it's fascinating no it's basically just pointing out that like people when they

01:40:44

make decisions they have these cognitive biases and so like here's an example you're making this

01:40:48

decision and you might view it this way that's a cognitive bias and obviously like when it comes

01:40:52

to cognitive biases a recognition is the the first step you know G.I. Joe now you know knowing

01:40:58

it's half the battle Joe you may be too young to remember G.I. Joe also oh thanks thanks guys

01:41:03

he might not know what it is you might need to explain it I'm good I'm good it was a cartoon

01:41:10

we're at the end of the end of every episode they would have like a public service announcement

01:41:15

like always wear a helmet and it was like this little 30 second thing and then they would always

01:41:19

end it with a tagline now you know and knowing is half the battle absolutely absolutely this

01:41:25

is becoming the what Joe don't know show I told you that's what you need to have you need to have

01:41:30

that show so I need a fourth podcast yeah pretty much okay thanks

01:41:38

you got to find somebody else to do all the work I know I know so whatever that one is

01:41:41

someone else is doing the editing for it so if you ever Mike if you ever want I don't know if

01:41:46

you've seen these yeah I'm going to show you two books that are along the lines of thinking

01:41:50

clearly but it's by a guy named I can't even pronounce his name Ali Ali al-moo mousaf so

01:41:59

a sahui have you heard about this one no I have not illustrated book the bad arguments yes it's

01:42:06

all about logical fallacies and how people use them with logical fallacies he followed it up

01:42:12

with a basically cognitive biases it's all about cognitive biases and how

01:42:18

algorithms can get over how get you over cognitive biases so the books call it's awesome

01:42:26

bad choice bad choices but they're all illustrated so it's kind of and he has some really cool

01:42:33

illustration type things so it's it's one of those books I know you guys aren't Kindle fans

01:42:39

I am but there are books and I've shown Joe my library I have a lot of books that aren't

01:42:44

because there's a lot of books that don't show up on Kindle well because they have art in them

01:42:49

and everything so well I didn't mean to book you guys books books well yeah for a gap book

01:42:55

we like I've got one I picked it up here a little bit ago called the machine stops

01:43:01

this is interesting because it's about a a civilization that has essentially left the surface

01:43:10

of the earth it's a science fiction thing and they go underground and they can bring anything

01:43:15

and everything to their fingertips with the push of a button and what happens when the machine that

01:43:20

runs all of this shuts off it's very it ties into smartphones and the internet even though it was

01:43:29

written it's a short story written in 1909 so it's very prophetic in that sense

01:43:34

interesting yeah that that sounds uh that sounds kind of cool I may have to check that one out

01:43:39

my gap book is talk like Ted by Carmine Gaiyo I think is how you pronounce her last name

01:43:49

it's essentially a book about the the nine different characteristics that she identifies

01:43:54

that really good Ted Teak Ted speakers possess and so as I am trying to continue to become a better

01:44:03

public speaker this this book was kind of highly recommended so I have to ask do you talk funny

01:44:11

what's star reigning we don't even talk much about it besides what do you think oh yeah that's a good

01:44:16

point uh I would say probably four stars I felt like there was a lot of really good

01:44:24

stuff in there the writing style was a little bit distracting to me but I totally understood

01:44:28

the points that the author is making and there's a lot of value there I really liked the idea

01:44:33

of practicing your jokes that's not something I typically do and it's something that I kind of

01:44:40

teased out is I want to do that before I give my talk at max sock actually in a couple weeks

01:44:44

I want to not just show up and wing it and not just present information I want to make a

01:44:49

conscious effort especially in the keynote presentation to incorporate humor and I will

01:44:54

definitely be rereading that book and at that as I prepare for that that talk as well it was really

01:44:59

good if you ever want to have a virtual rehearsal over Skype or zoom or whatever let me know I'll

01:45:05

help you out cool yeah that would be fun because this is what I love speaking and if you ever want

01:45:13

I have a whole shelf of about 30 40 50 books on speaking and which one are you reading right now

01:45:20

like what what what what books are you going to right now Josh

01:45:23

um I'm reading so I signed up for Mac I mean uh Amazon deal of the day is like two dollar two

01:45:32

dollar books and so I'm reading a non a fiction book called the I forget the mirror wood is the

01:45:41

it's the second book in the mirror wood series it's a fantasy novel the books I'm reading for

01:45:46

non-fiction are um oh what's it called getting to know which is a negotiation book that was

01:45:54

recommended after reading never split the difference which is probably the best negotiating book I've

01:45:58

ever read and then I'm reading uh some role-playing game books yes I play Dungeons and Dragons people

01:46:05

I'm that sorts of geeky and I am also for speaking books the next one on my list

01:46:13

there it is oh I'm reading a book on fasting because I'm learning about the health benefits of

01:46:21

fasting because I am a large bastard and I want to not be so large sounds like you're going through

01:46:27

a lot of books right now speak like Churchill stand I like Lincoln yeah cool there's also a

01:46:35

thanks for the feedback that I'm kind of quasi going through and thank you for arguing thank you

01:46:40

for arguing if you want to have a book that's about arguing really well and understanding the

01:46:46

points of arguing to the point of making it an art form thank you for arguing is awesome so

01:46:54

Josh yes where do we find you online like where where you want to send people uh theoretical

01:47:00

accountability it's this lame podcast I'm a part of the the producer is a total total tool no just

01:47:08

kidding I love you too Josh I know that's a podcast I have with Joe and the intern on Twitter I am

01:47:17

SHOU IT it's been it's a show it it's my internet handle since 95 so a long long time and then I

01:47:28

have a website called JoshRench.com and then the website everybody likes to go to is baconstradgum.net

01:47:37

which shows people how to make custom home smoked bacon it's very good which is very important I

01:47:43

can it's very very yeah Mike has not had any of my bacon mainly because I gave it to by the way

01:47:49

Mike I want you to know that I gave some to Joe and I'm assuming that it never got to you it barely

01:47:55

made it to you. Did it definitely did not get to me I don't know are you I don't know if you're

01:48:01

are you immediately I mean I'm not trying to judge or anything like I have several friends that are

01:48:07

vegan so I don't know just I like me some you like bacon you like bacon I do next time you

01:48:14

I know that you're getting together with Joe or you're coming to town just let me know 10 days

01:48:19

ahead of time and I'll make some bacon for you or I'll make sure I have some bacon.

01:48:24

Yeah once you have my bacon though the problem is is you really don't want to go back to store

01:48:29

about bacon do you do you Joe? It's it's difficult to go buy it yes I'll say that.

01:48:35

You're in a new bacon jacket. Mike and I'll be together for max stock when is this three weeks

01:48:42

two weeks I don't know how long it is until yeah it is let me look at the calendar it is

01:48:48

you should come to that. 5th and I still go in 16th yeah I think so

01:48:52

yeah you can still buy tickets it's in Chicago Woodstock Illinois so close to Chicago it's

01:49:03

actually the place where they film the movie Groundhog Day. Oh okay and then I can get

01:49:10

kid to meet Brett Terpstra yep and John Voorhees and lots of other

01:49:16

dude really is Max Sparky going? Max does Max Sparky go? Mr. Sparky? He has not been there. Don

01:49:22

McAllister is usually there from Screencast Online I don't think he's going to be there this

01:49:25

year. I'm not sure who else is on the speaker lineup to tell you the truth Chuck Joyner from

01:49:30

Mac Voices. A lot of people from the Mac it's a it's a fun time. Okay I may have to come.

01:49:36

It depends on the stage of the project and everything else and what my wife my wife gave

01:49:42

me permission to go see HPS, Rock Public Speaking Live for the second time so that's a very large

01:49:50

sums of money so I don't. How much is the max stock? You're not paying for it because you're

01:49:56

keynoting so what is Joe what are you paying? $100? $100? I'm like that yeah it's not expensive.

01:50:03

Oh no that's not bad at all because my HPS is a thousand dollars. No it's not

01:50:08

for three days. Not even close. All right well I will thank you guys for letting me be on this

01:50:15

podcast. It's a very deep honor I've been listening to you guys for a long time.

01:50:19

I have I've been listening to Joe since he had What You Know Joe really should be

01:50:25

tiled. I haven't seen Star Wars so I really know nothing. I wish I could throw something at you

01:50:30

right now. Joe and I are I'm not meaning this in any way mean and I'm just it's fun and

01:50:38

then Mike I've been listening to you since Asian efficiency and when you join that team and you're

01:50:42

on the podcast with Zach and then you took over the podcast so it's kind of cool that I not even

01:50:48

just kind of it is cool that I got to get to meet you guys and get to talk to you guys on this

01:50:54

podcast and people get to hear me. Fun times and for the listeners if you are following along with

01:51:02

this or you're paying attention to the books that we've been a part of or going through and you have

01:51:07

one that you want to recommend you know Mike mentioned one that his wife has recommended that

01:51:10

she wants us to go through you can do that if you go out to bookworm.fm/recommend you can see

01:51:16

a forum there you can fill out and recommend a book to us through that if you want to see the

01:51:20

ones that we've been through the ones we're planning the ones that other people have recommended you

01:51:24

can do that at slash list out there as well. If you want to help other people find the show and

01:51:31

dethrown KCRW as the number one return when you search for bookworm in iTunes please go to iTunes

01:51:39

and leave us a rating and a review it would really help us out and if you want to join in the

01:51:44

conversation you can do so at productivityguild.com. I have one thing to say I have reviewed your

01:51:51

podcast Mike have you reviewed our podcast? Guilty have not okay just there's my action item put it

01:52:02

on the list Joe. So Josh I I yeah thanks for coming on the show. Thank you for letting me be on the

01:52:13

show this is a great honor. It's good to finally connect you two I feel like I'm I've been the third

01:52:17

wheel between you and not being together. You've been a telephone we've just been picking you up

01:52:21

and sticking you to our ear and then get the message to Joe I mean get the message to Mike get

01:52:28

the message to Josh get the message to Mike that kind of thing so it's a good time all right it's a

01:52:33

good time glad to have you. We just have a thank you and you guys keep having an amazing podcast and

01:52:38

hopefully Mike reviews us so that we can dethrown nobody else because nobody else decided to take

01:52:43

our name theoretical accountability. It was too long. So for the listeners if you're reading along

01:52:48

with us the power of a positive note by William Erie that's the one to pick up next and we will go

01:52:54

through that one next time.