Bookworm Transcripts

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Okay, Joe, you did something last episode that made me very nervous.

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We got to find out what is the book that you are going to be picking next.

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See, you got kind of nervous about this and got kind of worried and I sensed that, but

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I felt like it would be just fine.

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But we did have a winner and they picked a really good one too, Mike.

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So the problem with this going so well is it makes me want to do it again.

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Oh boy.

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So I don't know how I'm going to do this, but I feel like this should become a game in

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some form.

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I need to figure that out.

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But for those who didn't attend the live recording, here's how this went.

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Joe sprung it on me live and I basically was like, absolutely not.

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I hold veto power.

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Yadda yadda yadda.

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And then I edited it all down.

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And if you listened to the downloaded version, none of that was in there.

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So basically you were left with the impression that whatever was going to be picked was going

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to be the book that we were going to be covering, or you were going to be picking next.

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Yeah.

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And that's kind of the way I wanted to leave it as an experiment.

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And this one was successful.

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So I guess that maybe proves your point that it kind of works, but also I was kind of,

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I guess, in the back of my mind, hoping that this would be a disaster and we wouldn't

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have to do it.

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Just being honest.

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That's a fair assessment, but this one went really well.

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We do have a winner.

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It was awful.

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Otter chose the infinite game by Simon Sennick.

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Now that means, so today we have our book and then my next choice I'll talk about later,

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but it will be the one following that on my end.

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So today my next choice, Mike's choice, and then the infinite game will come at that point.

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So that would be episode.

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What is it?

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81, 82, it'd be episode 83.

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This is what that'll be.

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The infinite game by Simon Sennick.

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So well done, awful Otter.

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Congratulations.

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Well done, I guess.

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Thanks for reinforcing Joe's habit of springing stuff on me as we record live.

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I like springing things on Mike and I don't know why.

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I'm sorry, sir.

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You like to see me freak out probably.

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I feel like I get better genuine reactions out of you if I spring it to you live while

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we're recording.

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That is probably true.

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So we are going to be doing the infinite game, which is cool because I saw that Simon Sennick

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had a new book out and I was kind of the back of my mind hoping that that one would come

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across the club and people would vote for it, which is how I typically pick the books that

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we're going to be covering.

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So this one I'm excited to read.

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I'm a big fan of Simon Sennick's.

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We've covered start with why before, but I've read leaders last two and I was a big fan

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of that book.

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It makes us to dive into this one.

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I own the book leaders eat last and I ran across it at a thrift store.

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I don't know why I love hunting books at thrift stores.

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It's like a thing I do and I was rummaging through them and I ran across leaders eat

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last and it occurred to me.

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This is kind of in a weird spot and I look up and I'm in like the cookbooks area.

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It's like someone had stuck leaders eat last in the cooking section.

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So fun times, but I have done, I sent out, we've talked about my email newsletter a few

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times here on the show, but I sent one out here a couple days ago about a new project

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that I have undertaken and that a few people are pretty excited about.

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It's going to actually come out very quickly.

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I think it'll be out.

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Let's see.

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When does this release?

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It'll be on Friday.

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It'll be about five days or so after this episode releases.

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This will be live, but I'm revamping and redoing working with OmniFocus.

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This is my third time revamping this.

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So it works out well.

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It's like working with OmniFocus 3 and we're on OmniFocus 3.

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This works great.

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So I'm in the middle of all of my outlining and planning and scriptwriting and such for

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all of that and have been doing a little bit of recording.

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I know my speed with that sort of thing.

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So I know I should be in pretty good shape to get that done and released.

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I think it's November 20th is the release date for that.

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So I'm pretty excited about this one, Mike.

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It's been a while since I've gotten into the whole screencasting thing and released something

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in that space.

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So I'm excited to get back into it.

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It has been a while and I'm curious once you start doing it again, if you have a big

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learning curve or if it's riding a bike and you just pick up where you left off.

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I'm really hoping for the latter of those.

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Well, screen flow is basically the same.

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Yeah, and I'm still on the old version of it.

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Yeah, it's been a while since I've seen a Joe Buellig screencast.

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I can't say I'm at screencast online quality, but one of the things I wanted to put out

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about that is I have been like, I'm not a huge mind mapper, but I have been for this

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particular course, I've been doing a lot of mind mapping and mind node.

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Just because I know you use it all the time and of course the members of the show get

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access to your mind node files and I was building out my outline for this.

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When you texted me, your fun news with my node, which I did not know was possible.

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How did you do this?

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Yeah, so I texted Joe and I, well, actually I didn't let you know as it was happening,

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but I sent the final version and then I put in the details, I let you know that I thought

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I broke my node, which is true.

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I thought I did because one of these nights this week as I was finishing today's book,

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which is 540 something pages, I went to open my mind node application on my iPhone where

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I always take notes when I'm reading books and when I opened it, I usually leave the mind

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node file that I'm working on as the open document.

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When it went to the mind node application, I got a pop up message that said that the

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file was corrupted, the only thing I could do is tap OK and then the file was immediately

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deleted from iCloud.

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So I couldn't find it on any of my devices and I was a page like 480 something at the

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time and I was like, you got to be kidding me, I just lost the entire mind node file for

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principles because my approach to this, well, I've shared before that typically when I read

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a book, I'm just jotting down the things that stand out to me.

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This book is a little bit different.

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This is a summary of like everything Ray Dalio has ever learned and he's got a handy reference

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in the middle of the physical book that I wanted to kind of recreate as a digital version

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that I could search because I think that this is something I'm going to want to go back

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and reference down the road.

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And so I said about to do that and this file, the mind node file, which includes mainly

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text a few images as there's different diagrams and things and I would snap a photo on my

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phone and embed it in the mind node file.

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But this mind node file alone is 168 megabytes.

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So I thought to myself, well, this thing just got so big that mind node can't handle it

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and it just freaked out when it's open the file.

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What actually happened, I think, is that iCloud was being iCloud and there are issues with

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iCloud.

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People share stories all the time about, oh, my shortcuts disappeared or whatever.

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Like, there's weird stuff that's going on with iCloud right now and I think that iCloud

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did something while it was syncing with that package file that it just didn't, it was an

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Apple thing.

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It was not a mind node thing.

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I was able to go into iCloud.com on my computer and go restore the file and then once I opened

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it again, I've had no issues since then.

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But it's gotten me a little bit nervous about things.

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At least I know now that I can go back and find them because when I opened it up, I'd

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drill down into the settings in my iOS devices.

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You can't find it that way.

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The only way I could find a file was going into iCloud.com and then you can see a list

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of the files that you've recently deleted and you can download one to your computer.

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That's what I did.

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Then I moved it back into iCloud and it seems to be working.

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For a moment there, it was a little bit scary and I legitimately thought that I had hit

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the limit for what my node can handle in terms of size.

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If you see this thing, you'll understand why I thought that.

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Yeah.

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I would say we were talking about this a little bit before we jumped on and I pulled

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up Mike's file for this particular book.

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It's intense.

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There is a ton of information about this book in that my node file.

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I might have to spend some time with this mic and I read the book.

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This is nuts.

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Well done.

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Well, like I said, this is not my standard approach.

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I'm not trying to recreate the book.

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99.9% of the time when I read it.

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What I saw when I looked at the physical copy of the book, that there's a special section

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in the middle that's easy to find and then it's got two different bookmarks for the different

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sections which we'll get into in a minute here.

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I just thought to myself that, oh, this is intended to be a reference book.

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I make a digital version of this.

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Can I do that with my node?

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It might be a lot of work.

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Nah, it won't be that bad.

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It was that bad.

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It wasn't a ton of work.

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But I'm glad I got it done now and it's searchable.

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So that's cool.

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Hey, there's that.

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I just took pictures of the references in the middle.

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I could have done that probably.

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But take pictures, OCR it and call it good.

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I'm a nerd.

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Like you mentioned, I upload my My Map files to the club.

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If you are a premium member and you're giving us a couple bucks a month, first of all, thank

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you so much for your support.

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Also, go check out the book notes section because that's where all of these things live.

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There's a lot in there.

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There is.

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I try to upload them all for every book that we read.

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I include my gap books when I do them.

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My nodes for them also.

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They're all PDF files so you can download those and they're not super huge.

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The PDF for this one I think is like five megabytes.

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All right.

00:10:41

So should we talk about today's book?

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Yes.

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This will be fun one.

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This is a big one.

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It should be a ton of fun.

00:10:48

This is Principles by Ray Dalio.

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I know you had picked this as a gap book and you had had it as a gap book for a couple

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different episodes.

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At the time, I just thought honestly you were being slow in reading it.

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Now that I have it, I understand it's 540 something pages.

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So it is a very large book.

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It is a good book and it's an interesting read because a lot of the books that are in

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the personal development of the business type space, the productivity type books, they

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tend to be, here's a system, follow this, you'll get awesome results.

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This is kind of the opposite where it's like, here's my story, everything that I've learned,

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try to apply the stuff that makes sense.

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And it really inspired me like seeing this and reading this book, I was thinking to myself,

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man, it would be kind of cool to create something like this as a legacy to leave, not just my

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kids, but anybody who would be interested in that sort of thing.

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Now, Ray Dalio has been fairly successful.

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So people want to know what he did.

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- Fairly.

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- I don't think this is something that you could justify just anybody doing, but also

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like, that's where my brain went is, that would be kind of cool.

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If everybody at the end of their life had to think through, not that Ray's at the end

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of his life, but they think through all of the things that they've learned and they actually

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write them down, they document them.

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That's kind of cool.

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And I got thinking to myself, you know, if there was a thing like this that existed for

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all of the things that I value and all the principles that govern my life, that would

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be awesome.

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We've got our Schmidt's Family Core values, which is kind of like a step in this direction,

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but this is obviously a lot deeper than that, given how long it is.

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- Yeah, this is one that, like, it's in three parts.

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And it's borderline three books in one.

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Like, it's darn close because it's so long.

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It's, you know, and just to kind of summarize, like, what those parts are, the first one

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is essentially an autobiography of Bridgewater by Ray Dalio, Bridgewater being the investment

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firm that he founded and runs.

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So that's part one.

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Part two is life principles, the principles that he developed as part of building Bridgewater,

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just to live a genuine life.

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And then he goes into part three, which is the work principles.

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So he's been taking that same concept and applying it to business and such.

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So it's a fascinating read, but at the same time, there is a ton here.

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I have a single action item off of this book, which we'll get to later, that is actually

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like a massive project.

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So you can't really, I mean, and you have some here too.

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You can get individual action items out of this particular book, but it's more, it's

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more like an inspirational motivational type book, I think.

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Yes, you can act on it and you can build out your own set of principles.

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But to me, the core helpfulness from this particular one is pure motivation and like,

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be true to yourself and get stuff done.

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Like that's the sort of read that I feel that this is.

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So I really enjoyed it.

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Ray does a great job writing it, which is kind of unique given.

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I don't think he's done any writing prior to this.

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Yeah, I'm not sure.

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From what I can tell.

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I mean, he does a lot of writing, of course, internally for his business, but I don't think

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he's done any public writing previous to this.

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But no, it's a great read.

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I'm glad you picked it.

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It's a fun one.

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And it's especially interesting to go through a second time.

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Yeah, what was the main difference for you going through it a second time as opposed to

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the first time?

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Just from a high level, your thoughts and feelings on the book in general, did they

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change at all?

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I can't say that they did, to be completely honest and upfront.

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It was kind of hard to reread part one.

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Sure.

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Like that particular one.

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I mean, yes, it's super engaging in it because it's all story.

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But when you know the story and you know the outcomes and you know the punch lines, it's

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not as interesting the second time around.

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So I'll be honest, I kind of skimmed over some of those pieces in the first one.

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I'm not going to discount the book as a result of that just because I know my impressions

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from it on the first time I went through it.

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So I'm going to be gauging it based on that.

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Part two and three, like getting into the principles themselves.

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To me, it was very refreshing because I know what's coming and I know the rationale behind

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each point.

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And yet there's it's just so dense with material on those two parts that it's hard to come

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away from it feeling like you just reread a book.

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It feels very much a new read, even though I've been through it before.

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So I can't say that there was anything different just that it's it rekindles what I originally

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went through because there's so much there.

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So sure, it's it's one that I feel like if you have read this, it's worth reading it

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again.

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If I were to come back and try to do this a third time, I might skip part one the third

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time around and just go to part two and part three because I feel like that's where the

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true reference material level hits.

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Okay.

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So that's the part I find is super valuable for the long term.

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Yeah, that makes sense.

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And the reason that I ask is that the book is laid out in a very strategic order.

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So if you know what's coming, I'm sure that changes how you are reading the different

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sections.

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Right.

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So it starts with part one is called where I'm coming from.

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And this is kind of his story.

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That's where we'll start.

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We'll impact that in a minute, but just real briefly, the kind of the outline of the entire

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book, part two is the life principles.

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And then part three, which is the bulk of the book is the work principles.

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And those are the principles that they use at at Bridgewater.

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So part one, his story, I like this part because he's sharing not just the things that he did

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well to bring credibility, but he's also sharing all the stupid mistakes and how arrogant he

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was.

00:17:24

Yes.

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Yes.

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So this is how he's a he was an economist, maybe is the right term where he was trying

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to predict things and he was right at the beginning.

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And he thought that, okay, I understand this stuff and I'm an expert.

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And so the next time he saw something and he thought that it was going to play out a

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certain way he went on national TV and he's like, yeah, this is the way it's going to

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go.

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And it didn't go that way.

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And then he realized that everything that he had worked for, he kind of checked out the

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window because he had picked that hill to die on and it didn't pan out the way that

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he thought it was going to pan out and then he starts doing some soul searching.

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Like, well, why did it?

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Why did it go that way?

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Why was I wrong?

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And that kind of sparks this thing in him where he has this new perspective, he says in

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chapter three where he just wants to be right.

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And he doesn't care if the right answer comes from him.

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And that is a theme that pops up through the rest of the book in both life principles

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and the work principles, which is an interesting perspective.

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I think you can identify for yourself whether you work in an organization which has a leader

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or maybe above you or you have worked in an organization where they've either exhibited

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those skills or not exhibited those skills or that perspective.

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And I found through going through this that it actually caused me to get a little bit

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emotional, both grateful for some of these things that I've kind of understood prior

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to him defining them here.

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But he's saying like, this is how I've done this and been successful in this particular

00:19:03

area, whether it's life or work and the principles that are driving it.

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And I saw a lot of overlap with some things that personally I believe but haven't been

00:19:14

able to articulate exactly why.

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I know this is right but I can't explain it.

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I know I like this and I don't like that but I can't tell you exactly why.

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And as I was going through this, I realized that my intuition in some areas has been correct

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and then he kind of painted a picture of why it is that way.

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And it made me both kind of frustrated for some things that I probably stuck with maybe

00:19:39

a little bit too long in the past.

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And I was like, man, that was difficult, it didn't really need to be that way and now

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I can see all the underlying causes which caused it to be difficult.

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And I just don't want to be associated with that anymore.

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But then also it caused some gratitude for current situation and the qualities that I

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see and some of the people that are above me right now.

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And just thankful for the situation that I have.

00:20:03

I'm curious if you had a similar sort of reaction, either the first or second time that you went

00:20:08

through this or if it's just me being weird that it hit me so hard with his personal

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story.

00:20:13

Yeah, I mean, the thing that so the first time I came through it, I have a handful of

00:20:17

notes from the first time I went through this in a notebook and I pulled all those out and

00:20:23

some of it struck me the same in that like I know that I have a tendency to trust my intuition

00:20:32

on a lot of things.

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I just do to a fault in a number of areas when it comes to certain business decisions or

00:20:41

if it comes to like, should I write this article or that article, I have a tendency to just

00:20:47

trust my gut.

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And a lot of times it means that I'm spending too much time on things I shouldn't be.

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And it's because I don't have a good sense of what happens when like when I do X, does

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it lead to Y and Z?

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My assumption is it leads to F or G. And I'm completely wrong on things quite a bit.

00:21:13

So going through it the second time, I realized that at a deeper level than I did the first

00:21:19

time I believe.

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And I'm not real sure the details on how that will play out over time, but I do know

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that it makes me want more gut checks in place.

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It wants me to have more systems in place that I can rely on that keep me from trusting

00:21:40

my intuition when a lot of cases, I probably shouldn't be doing that.

00:21:45

It can cause some problems.

00:21:46

Yeah, well, I mean, that's kind of his whole ethos here, right, with principles is that

00:21:53

you have to understand the truth and then you have to have the principles that are going

00:21:58

to govern your decisions.

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And those will apply to both your life and your work.

00:22:06

But you really need to articulate them because they are going to be the driver for everything

00:22:11

positive or negative that happens to you.

00:22:13

Right, right.

00:22:14

And it takes some time to figure that stuff out.

00:22:16

I mean, if you look at the mind map for this, this was not written in a couple of months.

00:22:24

This is a mammoth tome.

00:22:29

And to be honest, it could have been a lot longer because he goes through basically everything

00:22:35

that he considers to be true and provides very short descriptions of why he thinks it's

00:22:41

so.

00:22:42

It's very quick hitting and it's lots of these little digestible chunks.

00:22:46

But there's some principles that he talks about that we've read a whole books on.

00:22:52

And he just keeps it real short and like, no, these are the things that apply to me.

00:22:58

And I think that that does a couple of things.

00:23:00

One, it gives some credibility to the principle because he's Ray Dalio and he's successful.

00:23:07

But also it kind of keeps the door open to define them for yourself, which is kind of

00:23:14

interesting.

00:23:15

It's almost the opposite effect where it's like, well, this is true for me.

00:23:17

It may not be true for you.

00:23:19

And there were some things as I went through here where I was like, I don't know if I'm

00:23:23

going to apply that one.

00:23:26

But I guess we're kind of wandering a little bit here.

00:23:29

Coming back to part one where I'm coming from, I'll just try to summarize this real quickly

00:23:32

because part two and part three, that's really where the meat is here anyways.

00:23:35

As I shared, he talks about the things that he was successful in and also the things that

00:23:40

he messed up in.

00:23:41

He talks about the three different stages of life.

00:23:44

I really like this where the first one is we're dependent on others and we learn.

00:23:47

The second one is that others depend on us and we work.

00:23:50

And the third one is when others are no longer depend on us and we no longer have to work,

00:23:55

we're free to save our life.

00:23:58

And I think this is probably where he is, but also how you save your life is open to

00:24:06

interpretation.

00:24:08

Everybody's got their own version of that.

00:24:11

And just the fact that he put this together, this is a lot of work.

00:24:17

And I feel like the fact that he's sharing all of this, everything that he's learned

00:24:24

essentially, he has a little bit of a perspective of I want to help others get to the level

00:24:31

where I've been.

00:24:32

I don't want them to continue to banging their head against the wall and to make things

00:24:37

harder than they have to be.

00:24:38

If you can learn from my mistakes, go ahead and do it sort of a thing.

00:24:42

Otherwise, there's no reason to share all the mistakes that he made, which he shares

00:24:49

a ton.

00:24:50

Most of the time when he talks about the good stuff that happens, by the way, when he gets

00:24:55

into the work principles, it's these people did this and it was the right thing to do.

00:25:03

But then all the negative stuff, it's like I needed to realize that I wasn't good at

00:25:07

this, that and the other thing, which is a very effective perspective.

00:25:12

But this whole part one, this is really the foundation which makes him believable in the

00:25:17

second and third parts.

00:25:18

I don't think just picking up in reading part two or part three, I would have been as interested

00:25:23

in what he had to say had I not read this first section.

00:25:26

Right.

00:25:27

Right.

00:25:28

Yeah, absolutely.

00:25:29

I will say that second time through part two and part three had a larger impact because

00:25:39

once you go through part one and you understand who Ray Dalio is and I've kept up with some

00:25:44

of the investment world over time.

00:25:47

So I knew who Ray was before I picked this up the first time, but I didn't understand

00:25:53

Bridgewater near as well as I did when I finished reading it the first time and especially the

00:25:58

second time, but the gap between those two, I've noticed and paid attention to Bridgewater

00:26:04

more because I'm aware of them even more now.

00:26:08

And I'm fascinated by the way that they work in today's world.

00:26:13

So part two and part three have, to your point, they have a bigger impact once you understand

00:26:19

the company Ray and where they've been.

00:26:22

Exactly.

00:26:23

So let's jump into part two here, life principles and there are, let me explain how this is kind

00:26:29

of put together.

00:26:30

So there's each of these different sections and then there are chapters inside of these

00:26:36

sections, although in part one, for example, there are eight different chapters.

00:26:43

And then when you get to life principles, he's really just numbering the principles.

00:26:47

So it starts over at one and there are five here in the life principle section.

00:26:51

We're not going to go through all of these.

00:26:53

There's no way we could do that and make this episode interesting for people.

00:26:59

So we're going to pick and choose the ones that really kind of jump out to us, but I'll

00:27:03

real quickly just cover the five that are in here.

00:27:06

Number one is embrace reality and deal with it.

00:27:08

Number two is use the five step process to get what you want out of life.

00:27:13

Number three is be radically open minded.

00:27:17

Number four is understand that people are wired very differently and number five, learn how

00:27:21

to make decisions effectively.

00:27:25

So the things that I really liked here, not necessarily the five step process that felt

00:27:31

like a system, I 100% believe that, you know, he through trial and error landed on this and

00:27:37

this absolutely works for him.

00:27:39

Reading through that does feel a little bit weird in terms of, okay, I'm going to try to

00:27:44

apply this myself.

00:27:46

Do you agree with that?

00:27:47

Yeah, I think there's, I mean, the five step process is interesting.

00:27:53

It's not one that I think I'm, I mean, basically set goals and go after them if you want that.

00:28:01

Yeah, so I guess real quickly, you know, first is have clear goals.

00:28:05

Second is identify and don't tolerate problems.

00:28:08

Third is diagnose problems to get to their root causes.

00:28:10

Four is design a plan.

00:28:11

Five pushed through to completion.

00:28:13

And there's this little graphic goals, problems, diagnosis, design, doing, and it's like this

00:28:18

little loop, loop sort of a thing.

00:28:21

I think the visual is communicating is that you're going to set goals.

00:28:25

You're going to encounter obstacles.

00:28:27

You're going to have to figure out a way around them.

00:28:28

And then eventually if you take that approach, you're going to keep moving upward.

00:28:32

Is that fair?

00:28:33

Yeah, absolutely.

00:28:34

I mean, when you're building out or living life, like you always have downturns to some

00:28:40

degree and generally speaking, he's talking about set goals, go for them.

00:28:45

You're inevitably going to have something that goes wrong or something that has a downturn,

00:28:50

evaluate it, figure out how to get past it and push through that way you can keep moving

00:28:54

forward.

00:28:55

Like that concept is it's very systematic, but that's Ray Dalio.

00:29:03

Like that is the way that he does life and he does everything in this book that way.

00:29:08

It's all, the whole point behind the principles is to give him guidance in making decisions

00:29:15

every day.

00:29:17

Yep.

00:29:18

So with all of the five steps or each individual piece being open-minded, radical transparency

00:29:25

and radical truth, these are things that he's all for because he wants to get the raw facts,

00:29:32

make decisions based on those raw facts that are consistent and repeatable.

00:29:38

So that he can alleviate the pressure on his own mind and his own intuition to enjoy

00:29:43

life.

00:29:44

Like that's really what he's going for, his success through systematized, repeatable decision

00:29:52

making.

00:29:53

And that's not a simple process to come to.

00:29:56

I mean, when you look through each of these principles and what he has written here, yes,

00:30:02

they're amazing principles.

00:30:03

Most of them.

00:30:04

Like almost all of them I agree with, but if you think about the mass number of guiding

00:30:12

steps here, it's kind of hard to get your head around how you could use all of this

00:30:18

to make decisions each day.

00:30:22

I mean, it's incredibly valuable, but there's well over, I think there's probably about

00:30:27

a thousand or maybe more principles at a small scale in this book.

00:30:32

Probably have a counter to mall.

00:30:34

Yeah.

00:30:35

And if you think about trying to just be aware of that many guiding principles in making

00:30:41

decisions, like that's borderline impossible.

00:30:45

So like the practicality of using this as a system, I feel is very difficult.

00:30:51

But having gone through the process to write and expand on these principles, I feel like

00:30:58

would cement them in your brain and in your organization quite a bit more than just taking

00:31:03

what he has and trying to implement it.

00:31:06

So I think it's incredibly valuable.

00:31:08

I just think it's kind of hard to get your head around, which is why you kind of have

00:31:13

to go through the process of doing this on your own.

00:31:15

Yeah, it is hard to wrap your head around.

00:31:18

The five step process makes it seem just like every other system that we've talked about

00:31:25

on bookworm, but it's really kind of vague in general because the specifics of your situation

00:31:31

are going to be different and you have to figure out for yourself in those different

00:31:35

areas really what's true.

00:31:38

If I were to summarize this section, I think there's a couple key things.

00:31:43

First, he mentions the very first principle he talks about is be a hyper realist.

00:31:47

He even mentions that people who create great things aren't ideal dreamers.

00:31:50

They're totally grounded in reality.

00:31:52

So you have to know what is true in order to connect the things around you in the ideal

00:32:01

way.

00:32:02

And he really believes in this idea of evolution, not like a large macro as a species topic,

00:32:11

but just personal evolution where you encounter something, you're able to learn from it.

00:32:16

You're able to get better, get stronger, become a better version of yourself.

00:32:22

And you just keep doing that over and over and over again throughout your entire life.

00:32:28

And I think that that is a very important perspective to have.

00:32:33

I think that's a mindset shift that nearly anybody could benefit from going back to the

00:32:39

book on mindset that we covered by Carol Dweck.

00:32:41

I mean, it's really the growth mindset versus the fixed mindset.

00:32:45

This is just growth mindset to the nth degree, in my opinion.

00:32:51

For sure.

00:32:52

Yeah.

00:32:53

First, how am I going to learn from whatever happens to me, but I want to realize as much

00:33:00

as I can, the ultimate truth of the situation around me.

00:33:04

And then once I am enlightened to the degree where I understand what's true, then I kind

00:33:10

of will know what to do.

00:33:13

I'm not sure if that is simpler or more complicated than the five step process.

00:33:18

It feels a little bit more simple to me.

00:33:19

I think there's just a couple pieces there.

00:33:20

And it's not these things that you follow in order.

00:33:24

They're more, again, principles.

00:33:25

They're kind of like the foundational guardrails behind your approach to everything.

00:33:31

It doesn't really matter.

00:33:32

You're not going to find yourself at stage four in the five step process.

00:33:36

You're going to just continue to approach things with an open mind, which is something

00:33:40

that we'll talk about here in a little bit.

00:33:42

And then you're going to constantly be asking, how can I do better next time?

00:33:46

Yeah, absolutely.

00:33:47

You got three specific pieces here you want to go through.

00:33:50

You want to start with the first one?

00:33:52

Sure.

00:33:53

So there's a section here where he talks about disagreements, which I thought was interesting

00:33:58

because most people view disagreements as people are fighting about something and someone

00:34:05

has to win, someone has to lose.

00:34:08

And the usual perspective when you have a disagreement, I think, is I want to prove

00:34:15

that I know better than you do, but he kind of talks about disagreements in a different

00:34:20

light.

00:34:21

He mentions that disagreements aren't threats as much as they are opportunities for learning.

00:34:26

So don't be afraid to disagree because the fact that you are disagreeing may show you

00:34:32

that somebody else has another aspect of truth that you haven't realized yet.

00:34:40

And I think back to most of the disagreements that I've had, and I know it's a general

00:34:48

statement, but I think it's totally fair to say that.

00:34:53

And it's hard in the moment to have that correct perspective.

00:34:59

So this isn't necessarily an action item for me, but I want to recognize that the fact

00:35:06

that I am in a disagreement is actually an opportunity to learn.

00:35:09

It's not something that is hindering me from making progress.

00:35:13

And the fact that we're here isn't necessarily a bad thing.

00:35:16

Just shut up and figure out what you can learn from it so that you can get better instead

00:35:20

of trying to impose your will and dominate the other party, whether that's my wife, a

00:35:24

co-worker, my boss, you know, anybody, because I think this applies both up and down the

00:35:30

chain of command to borrow the term from extreme ownership.

00:35:33

Like, people who are above you, people are below you.

00:35:35

So I might get in a disagreement with my dad.

00:35:38

I might get into disagreement with my kids.

00:35:41

Okay, same principle applies here.

00:35:43

Don't try to justify myself.

00:35:45

Try to understand things from their perspective, right?

00:35:47

Right.

00:35:48

And then figure out where I might be wrong.

00:35:49

Yeah, absolutely, because I know that whenever we get into disagreements, it's easy to get

00:35:55

into defensive mode and start explaining your own side of the story right away.

00:36:02

When in most cases, I mean, you're just flipping the coin to your own side, as opposed to

00:36:08

trying to understand the other side.

00:36:10

So I can't say that I'm good at this, but this is a piece that stood out to me the first

00:36:17

time I went through it because I've tried to learn since then how to ask questions when

00:36:24

I'm in the middle of a disagreement, because essentially what that does is it takes the

00:36:30

burden of explaining a point of view off of me and puts it on the other person.

00:36:37

And burdens may be the wrong word there because I don't want it to be a bad thing.

00:36:42

It's just that asking that other person what they think about their point of view or how

00:36:48

they came to that or tell me more about this specific piece.

00:36:53

All of those questions can eventually lead to a deeper conversation.

00:37:00

And I think that in the midst of that deeper conversation, that's when you can start to

00:37:06

understand why you're disagreeing and why there's a difference between the two of you,

00:37:11

because you may get to a point where you understand that the foundation of how that other person

00:37:16

came to believe what they think is drastically different than the foundation that you stand

00:37:22

on.

00:37:24

So yes, there's a disagreement there, but asking the questions as opposed to defending

00:37:29

your own.

00:37:31

At least in my opinion, can drive a better, I don't want to say argument, but a debate,

00:37:38

maybe a more productive argument, maybe.

00:37:40

Yeah, or maybe productive discourse.

00:37:42

It changes from, you know, I don't want to say hate filled, but a heated conversation

00:37:51

to genuine back and forth about a given topic.

00:37:56

That's kind of where I come from on that.

00:38:00

But that originally, like I hadn't really come to that conclusion until I read this the

00:38:04

first time through.

00:38:05

So it's interesting to me that you pulled this out, stuck it in the outline because this

00:38:08

is a piece that truly struck me heavily the first time I went through this and reading

00:38:14

it again the second time, I was like, yep, absolutely.

00:38:17

I still stink at that, but I will continue to agree that yes, that is a thing I should

00:38:24

be doing.

00:38:25

Sure.

00:38:26

And the thing that's tied to this, I think, is the whole section.

00:38:31

Principle number three, be radically open-minded.

00:38:33

I think if you are open-minded, that's the key to whether you can embrace a disagreement

00:38:42

through the right lens and turn it into a positive instead of it being a negative.

00:38:47

He talks through the different characteristics of being closed-minded versus open-minded.

00:38:53

And this, again, sounds a lot like fixed mindset versus growth mindset, but closed-minded,

00:38:57

you don't want your ideas challenged, you're more likely to make statements and ask questions,

00:39:02

focus more on being understood than on understanding others.

00:39:04

I mean, all of this is stuff we've heard before, right?

00:39:07

So Stephen Covey is the one who said, "Seek first to understand, then to be understood."

00:39:11

Right?

00:39:12

Right.

00:39:13

Right.

00:39:14

We talked about mindset by Carol Dweck.

00:39:15

Say things like, "I could be wrong, but here's my opinion."

00:39:17

You know, closed-minded people block others from speaking.

00:39:20

They had trouble holding two thoughts simultaneously in their minds.

00:39:24

They lack a deep sense of humility.

00:39:26

When you compare that to somebody who's open-minded, they're more curious about why there's a

00:39:29

disagreement.

00:39:30

They genuinely believe they could be wrong.

00:39:31

The questions that they ask are genuine.

00:39:33

They always feel compelled to see things through other people's eyes.

00:39:36

They know when to make statements and when to ask questions.

00:39:38

They're more interested in listening than speaking.

00:39:41

They can hold two or more conflicting concepts in their mind.

00:39:43

They go back and forth between them to assess the relative merits.

00:39:46

They're able to compare things.

00:39:47

They're not just so fixated on.

00:39:49

This is the thing that I believe before we started talking.

00:39:51

This has to be true and I'm going to yell louder.

00:39:54

They approach everything with the deep-seated fear that they could be wrong.

00:39:57

I don't think fear maybe is the right word there.

00:40:00

Curiosity maybe is a better one where you want to discover the things that are true.

00:40:06

That's something that I try to embody in my own life, but I know that I could be better

00:40:10

at.

00:40:11

I want to become better at being open-minded.

00:40:16

I think that the place that that plays out most often and most practically in my day-to-day

00:40:22

life is in the disagreements that pop up.

00:40:26

That's the acid test for me.

00:40:29

Next time I'm in a disagreement, how do I find myself responding?

00:40:34

How do I find myself responding?

00:40:35

If I'm going to take my emotional temperature in the moment, am I cool, calm, and collected

00:40:42

and trying to figure out where I missed it or am I frustrated and angry and feel my

00:40:47

blood boiling because the other person just doesn't get it.

00:40:51

I'm ashamed to admit that that one happens a little more often than I'd like.

00:40:58

Sure.

00:40:59

I specifically noticed this one in my marriage.

00:41:03

My wife and I can't say we have a lot of fights.

00:41:09

We have some heated debates, probably regularly, but I can't say it's a full-blown fight most

00:41:15

of the time.

00:41:17

Most cases I find that those heated conversations and the fights come from me not being willing

00:41:28

to see her side of the story.

00:41:31

And essentially not being open-minded to her side of the conversation.

00:41:37

It's not a good place to be in 99.9% of cases.

00:41:42

I can say that in recent months over the last year, I've specifically been targeting that

00:41:49

thought process because I know it's not helpful.

00:41:54

And going through the process of trying to understand what raise take is on being open-minded

00:41:59

and such, just kind of rekindled that, Mike.

00:42:04

It's been one that I've had conversations with my wife about it in that I'm trying to

00:42:09

just be willing to admit that I'm wrong.

00:42:12

I have to be okay with that.

00:42:16

And there's a lot of cases where she'd say the same thing, but it's a back-and-forth,

00:42:21

obviously, in a marriage trying to understand each other.

00:42:23

But you always have to be open-minded to the other person's point of view.

00:42:27

And if you're not, you're going to have disagreements that you don't resolve or that you don't

00:42:32

come to an agreement to disagree on.

00:42:35

So I appreciated this.

00:42:39

And I can't say that it's one that's super groundbreaking right now, but it's one that

00:42:44

was at least encouragement.

00:42:45

This is why I say it's a motivational type book occasionally.

00:42:50

That was another motivator and another kickstart in the right direction, for sure.

00:42:55

Yeah.

00:42:56

And the question then, if you decide that you want to be open-minded is how do you become

00:43:04

open-minded?

00:43:05

And he has a section on that.

00:43:07

A lot of this stuff is just general, recognize what's going on here, stuff like use pain

00:43:12

as your guide towards quality reflection and make being open-minded a habit, get to know

00:43:16

your blind spots.

00:43:17

If there's a number of believable people who say you're doing something wrong, you're

00:43:20

the only one who doesn't see it that way, assume you're probably biased.

00:43:24

But the one that was interesting to me, and this is one of my action items, is to meditate.

00:43:31

And good job, Mike.

00:43:33

All right.

00:43:34

Yeah.

00:43:35

So I've mentioned this a couple of different times, I think now that I've been working

00:43:38

on this article for the sweet setup by the time that this goes live, that article will

00:43:43

be published on the Best Mindfulness Meditation app.

00:43:46

So this has kind of been culminating in coming to ahead, but the reminder that they gave

00:43:51

me here in principles, this is the thing that I think finally has cemented this and is

00:43:56

going to make this a habit.

00:43:57

I've been doing headspace now, my current streak is 12 days in a row.

00:44:02

And it seems to be working.

00:44:05

The thing that has kind of flipped the trigger for this, in my opinion, is, and this is a

00:44:11

little bit of a tangent, but I feel like this might help people who maybe struggle with

00:44:15

this like me, where I've always thought, you know, my situation isn't that bad compared

00:44:22

to other people.

00:44:23

I don't have, I'm not in a office environment and people are barging in all the time and

00:44:27

giving me a bunch of things to do.

00:44:28

So meditation is probably great for those types of people who just can't handle the

00:44:34

situation they find themselves in, but I shouldn't need that.

00:44:38

I think ultimately that's kind of my hesitancy to the idea of mindfulness meditation, because

00:44:46

I understand the science behind it.

00:44:49

I also a long time ago got over the whole woo woo spiritual aspect of it.

00:44:55

There are different meditation styles and practices that get into that stuff and those

00:44:59

I'm not interested in at all, but mindfulness meditation, I definitely am.

00:45:05

I want to train my brain to focus and to regulate my emotions and things like all the physiological

00:45:10

benefits that come from it.

00:45:12

There's nothing spiritual about that.

00:45:14

You can apply it spiritually, you know, we talk about our faith on this podcast.

00:45:18

Some people say too much, but that's a big part of who I am.

00:45:22

So I can apply these principles and think about the people I'm praying for or the verses

00:45:28

that I'm reading.

00:45:30

But that's not something that even if you are completely turned off by everything spiritual,

00:45:37

there's nothing in just mindfulness meditation that will cause you to do that.

00:45:44

It's simply just training your brain on whatever you want to focus it on and then recognizing

00:45:48

when it wanders and bringing it back.

00:45:51

The fact that you keep bringing it back, keep bringing it back, keep bringing it back, that's

00:45:54

the thing that helps it to stay on track more.

00:45:57

And I've recognized I think that this isn't something that I necessarily need to do, but

00:46:03

it is something that will be helpful and that has turned it into something that I want to

00:46:07

do.

00:46:09

And especially as he frames it here in principles as being a thing that can help you be open-minded

00:46:14

and recognizing that, hmm, sometimes you're not so hot at being open-minded.

00:46:19

That kind of highlights the point that, you know, you really could use this.

00:46:25

So that's one of my action items.

00:46:27

Well done.

00:46:28

I'm proud of you.

00:46:29

And I'm sad that 10% happier didn't make it.

00:46:32

It's a solid app.

00:46:33

You have to read the review.

00:46:35

Okay.

00:46:36

But it's expensive.

00:46:37

I get it.

00:46:38

It is.

00:46:39

I'm with you on the meditation thing.

00:46:42

Obviously I've kind of switched sides.

00:46:44

I struggled with it for a very long time, but I've been noticing a lot more of the benefits.

00:46:52

It's kind of this weird chicken and egg thing because it's like you need, it's almost like

00:46:56

you have to be into meditation to understand the benefits of meditation.

00:47:03

And when you're not or you're just trying it out, but being skeptical, like you haven't

00:47:07

bought into it.

00:47:08

So then you're not aware of it.

00:47:10

It's so weird.

00:47:11

Like it's kind of back and forth.

00:47:13

I find.

00:47:14

But the more I have dedicated to the practice and making sure that I do that on a daily basis,

00:47:20

I've noticed I'm a lot more of a calm person than I used to be.

00:47:25

I let things go quicker than I used to.

00:47:28

And I don't get as fired up as quickly as I used to.

00:47:32

So at this point, I'm pretty much sold.

00:47:36

Yeah.

00:47:37

And that's the goal.

00:47:39

I think for me is when I am in a disagreement and I feel myself getting frustrated, the fight

00:47:45

versus flight is kicking in.

00:47:46

And it just shows that I haven't yet developed that to the point where I can catch it early

00:47:51

enough to control it.

00:47:53

And obviously each situation is a little bit different, but that's what I want to get

00:47:57

to you is exactly what you just described where no matter what happens to land in my

00:48:02

lap or whatever happens around me, I can respond appropriately and I can see it the right way.

00:48:09

And I feel like meditation is something that mindfulness meditation specifically is something

00:48:14

that can help me get there.

00:48:16

Sure.

00:48:17

What else we got on life principles?

00:48:19

I got lost in the outline.

00:48:21

Yeah, I kind of jumped over all over the place.

00:48:24

But the last thing I wanted to talk about here comes from section five.

00:48:28

He talks about synthesizing as the collecting and interpreting of dots.

00:48:34

And this was interesting to me because I've shared on this podcast before one of the things

00:48:39

that allowed me to be creative and consider myself a writer, podcaster, creator, whatever,

00:48:46

was reading Austin Cleon's book, "Steal Like An Artist."

00:48:49

And he talks about how when you create something, you're literally just connecting dots in a

00:48:53

way that they haven't been connected before, but the dots themselves are not completely

00:48:56

original.

00:48:58

So when you're talking about synthesizing in this book, that's a term I thought of obviously

00:49:04

he's using this in terms of doing this for making right decisions.

00:49:10

But I also thought back to that book by Austin Cleon and how synthesizing can also be used

00:49:15

in the creative process.

00:49:17

And I thought this was kind of cool.

00:49:19

Not just as a validation for something that I've talked about before, but really just highlighting

00:49:26

this as a life principle and how this can keep you on the right path.

00:49:35

I think the way he presented it in this book made it seem a little bit more approachable

00:49:40

for just about everybody.

00:49:41

Because with Austin Cleon's book, "Steal Like An Artist," people have a lot of questions

00:49:45

of trouble identifying themselves as a creative person or as an artist.

00:49:49

And I talked about that my Max Talk presentation that really everybody is creative.

00:49:56

When you give a kid a box of crayons, they don't sit there and say, "Well, where are

00:50:00

the instructions?

00:50:01

What am I supposed to do?"

00:50:02

They just start drawing unless they've had some prior coaching one way or the other.

00:50:09

But by default, we're naturally kind of curious and we want to experiment with things.

00:50:17

So synthesizing the situation at hand, synthesizing the situation through time, these are all

00:50:24

different things that he talks about in terms of making good decisions.

00:50:30

And I think that when you view collecting these dots and interpreting these dots and

00:50:37

trying out all these different things, it's kind of a license to be more creative.

00:50:44

And creative is probably not the right term.

00:50:46

Maybe it's more adventurous, I don't know.

00:50:49

But the takeaway for me as I read this was don't put yourself in this box because of

00:50:55

the things that you have traditionally done.

00:50:58

Or maybe you tried something a long time ago and it didn't go exactly the way you wanted

00:51:02

it to.

00:51:03

So you're afraid to even try it again.

00:51:05

This is part of making good decisions, is trying things and failing at them.

00:51:11

The key though is to recognize the truth, right?

00:51:15

To see why things failed or why you didn't get a good outcome.

00:51:20

And you might just surprise yourself at what you're able to find when you view this synthesizing

00:51:25

as just collecting as many dots as you can and then figuring out what they actually mean.

00:51:29

We're just letting the connection happen naturally.

00:51:32

I mean, we do this all the time with Bookworm in that we read a ton of books.

00:51:38

Sometimes they overlap, a lot of times their system books and Mike loves them to death.

00:51:43

And sometimes we find things that are just completely contradictory to what we believe.

00:51:49

I'm sure Mike's looking at Amanda Palmer right now.

00:51:53

So these things happen and you collect a lot of information about a lot of different areas.

00:51:59

And over time, you start to put those dots together in ways that are new to you and might

00:52:07

be new to the world.

00:52:09

And I think a lot of the art side can come out in that, but you have to be willing to

00:52:15

make that commitment to connecting or at least collecting those dots.

00:52:21

Whether it's reading a bunch of articles online or experimenting with a guitar or playing

00:52:26

around with screencasts and such, no matter what it is, playing around with it and learning

00:52:33

about it is to your point something we're naturally inclined to.

00:52:38

But it can lead to a lot of really cool things.

00:52:41

So yeah, I love Bookworm because it gives me a schedule for collecting dots.

00:52:47

And it's an easy avenue.

00:52:51

Books are to gathering a lot of information very quickly.

00:52:56

So I'm of course a big fan of the dots being originated in books.

00:53:02

Obviously I'd also like to play around with things as well, both of which do a great job

00:53:08

at collecting dots.

00:53:09

So thanks Ray for encouraging my habits.

00:53:14

Yep.

00:53:15

The last thing that I wanted to call out in this section is something that's pretty short

00:53:20

near the end.

00:53:21

As you mentioned in order to have the best possible life, you need to one, know what

00:53:26

the best decisions are and two, have the courage to make them.

00:53:29

And I feel like this is kind of related to collecting dots because you can't know what

00:53:34

the best decisions are unless you've collected enough dots to weigh them against each other

00:53:39

and then having the courage to make them, that's obviously its own thing.

00:53:45

But it's not just stepping up blindly and hoping for the best.

00:53:51

It's trying a bunch of things, doing a bunch of tests basically and then determining the

00:53:56

best course of action.

00:53:58

Once you see what the best course of action is, even if it's going to be hard or it's

00:54:02

going to be scary, having the ability to overcome the fear and do what you know you need to

00:54:11

do, that's the thing that's going to get you ultimately to a fulfilling life.

00:54:16

Ready for work principles?

00:54:18

Yeah.

00:54:19

Let's talk about work principles.

00:54:20

Let's talk about action in this one.

00:54:22

Yep.

00:54:23

Now there is a ton here.

00:54:25

Number one, trust in radical truth and radical transparency.

00:54:28

Number two, cultivate meaningful work and meaningful relationships.

00:54:33

Number three, create a culture in which it's okay to make mistakes and unacceptable not

00:54:36

to learn from them.

00:54:38

Number four, get and stay in sync.

00:54:41

Number five, believability, weight your decision making.

00:54:44

Number six, recognize how to get beyond disagreements.

00:54:47

Number seven, remember that the who is more important than the what?

00:54:50

Number eight, higher right because the penalties for hiring wrong are huge.

00:54:54

Number nine, constantly trained, test evaluate and sort people.

00:54:58

Let's see.

00:54:59

Number 10, manage as someone operating a machine to achieve a goal.

00:55:03

Number 11, perceive and don't tolerate problems.

00:55:05

Number 12, diagnose problems to get to their root causes.

00:55:08

Number 13, design improvements to your machine to get around your problems.

00:55:12

Number 14, do what you set out to do.

00:55:13

Number five, use tools and protocols to shape how work is done.

00:55:16

Number 16, for heaven's sake, don't overlook governance.

00:55:19

I share all of those just to illustrate to the point that there is a lot in here that

00:55:25

we are not going to talk about.

00:55:27

So don't base a judgment on this section based on what you hear in here us talk about.

00:55:33

Right, because this section, so this is part three, part three by itself is 259 pages.

00:55:40

That's a book by itself.

00:55:42

Yeah, and the thing that is, the thing that is really interesting to it in this, there's

00:55:50

a couple of big themes.

00:55:51

That's kind of what I tried to pick out here.

00:55:53

Number one, he talks about this concept of an idea meritocracy.

00:55:58

This I think is the crux of all of the principles in this section.

00:56:03

I really like his definition of an idea meritocracy, which is radical truth plus radical transparency

00:56:09

plus believability weighted decision making.

00:56:12

I didn't really like the whole believability weighted decision making when it came to the

00:56:16

life principles because there are some things that I haven't understood that I've done anyways

00:56:21

and they've ended up being the right thing to do.

00:56:24

But I think it makes sense in a business perspective in a lot of different organizations.

00:56:28

Now there are obviously going to be situations where you are going to, you're going to overrule

00:56:35

those, I think.

00:56:37

I don't think you can get away from that completely.

00:56:41

But I do think if the goal is to make yourself replaceable as you create this organization

00:56:48

or this business or this thing, you have to have this embedded in the fabric of the organization.

00:56:56

So I understand the value of it.

00:56:58

But the two things that really stand out to me from this are radical truth and radical

00:57:03

transparency.

00:57:04

Well, here real quick, before you get into that, let's define what the idea meritocracy

00:57:09

is.

00:57:10

Because I know when I went through this the first time, that's a really cool term.

00:57:15

What on earth is that?

00:57:17

That's kind of a hard one to get your head around.

00:57:19

And I think in his case, essentially what they're after is a way to collect ideas from

00:57:27

anyone and everyone and weigh them all equally.

00:57:31

Yes.

00:57:32

And so I shared the formula that he shares at the first section of this where it's about

00:57:36

how he thinks about organizations.

00:57:39

So there's the three different components, radical truth, radical transparency, believability,

00:57:43

weighted decision making.

00:57:44

What does that look like?

00:57:45

I think that's kind of what you're getting at.

00:57:47

Radical truth doesn't matter what your title is.

00:57:51

If you are wrong, you are wrong.

00:57:53

And anybody can be right.

00:57:55

Number two, radical transparency.

00:57:58

Everybody can see everything.

00:57:59

And then number three, the things that govern how decisions are made, they're based on logic,

00:58:07

basically.

00:58:08

The believability weighted decision making, this makes the most sense.

00:58:12

So this is the thing that we're going to do.

00:58:14

Data driven decisions might be another way to define that.

00:58:18

And so I can't think of any organization that I've worked with that is this based on the

00:58:25

definition that he outlines here.

00:58:27

And I don't think that they necessarily should be either.

00:58:30

But I do think that these three ideas that combine the idea of meritocracy, this, I can

00:58:39

I can definitely see value in this.

00:58:41

I would like to build elements of this into the organizations that I am involved with.

00:58:49

The challenge is, how do you do that if you're not the person who is the CEO calling the shots?

00:58:55

But I do think that radical truth and radical transparency specifically, like always seeking

00:58:59

the truth and always sharing it, those are things that anybody can apply.

00:59:06

But this is, it requires the people involved to be trustworthy.

00:59:12

Yes.

00:59:13

And full of integrity.

00:59:15

And I say that because I've been burnt by this one, because I, the first time I went

00:59:21

through this, I embraced this one wholeheartedly and went down the path of radical truth, radical

00:59:27

transparency within the business that I was in the middle of at the time.

00:59:33

And it bit me hard.

00:59:36

So yeah, you cannot just join an organization and say, I am going to embrace radical truth

00:59:41

and radical transparency.

00:59:42

Right.

00:59:43

Because that will have negative ramifications if the people above you do not embrace the

00:59:47

same ideals or below you in this case.

00:59:50

So I'm not going to go into any details other than that, but it is very easy for people

00:59:56

to take advantage of an organization if you embrace this.

01:00:02

So the people who are in the organization have to be bought in 100%.

01:00:07

If there's any question about their loyalty or their integrity, like you have a different

01:00:17

issue, which I think is why like he's got part three broken down into three subsections.

01:00:23

Like the first one is getting the culture right, which is where this radical truth and

01:00:28

radical transparency piece comes from.

01:00:30

And he quickly follows that up with getting the people right.

01:00:33

Right.

01:00:34

And I think that's why, because if you get the culture right, it has to have the right

01:00:37

people in it.

01:00:39

And I have screwed that up in the past.

01:00:43

Culture is people.

01:00:45

See, there's that too.

01:00:46

He makes them separate though.

01:00:47

Yep.

01:00:48

And I understand it.

01:00:49

You know, he's talking about from his perspective as a CEO and growing and scaling this company,

01:00:56

right?

01:00:57

So he is driving the ship when they're small.

01:01:01

And then as they grow, he's having to delegate to other people.

01:01:05

And by creating the culture first, he has a better chance of everybody being on board

01:01:10

with the vision that he's casting at the very beginning.

01:01:13

You cannot just collect a bunch of people and assume that they will create the right

01:01:18

culture.

01:01:19

You do have to have the direction dictated by the culture.

01:01:22

First I think, but the way that it plays out is in the people who are a part of the organization.

01:01:29

I mean, there are a lot of organizations that have mission statements that sound great,

01:01:35

and then they don't live out any of them.

01:01:38

So they might have the right corporate culture on paper, but everybody in the organization

01:01:45

knows that's not how they actually do things.

01:01:48

And so that's why I say that culture is people because they're the ones that have to live

01:01:54

it out.

01:01:55

Yeah, sure.

01:01:56

For sure.

01:01:57

All right.

01:01:58

Another thing that talking about culture that stood out to me in this section is I put

01:02:04

disagree, but commit, he has a little bit different way of saying that number six recognize

01:02:14

how to get beyond disagreements.

01:02:16

He mentions 6.4.

01:02:18

So that's basically how he writes this is he's got the principles and then a whole bunch

01:02:23

of point principles and then a whole bunch of sub principles below those or sub sub principles,

01:02:29

I guess is how he defines those.

01:02:31

But 6.4, once a decision is made, everyone should get behind it, even though individuals

01:02:36

may still disagree.

01:02:39

This one jumped out to me because I've sort of studied this already, but I think this

01:02:47

is the thing that kind of makes this all work.

01:02:52

Like if you embrace all of the principles up until this point, and then you've got a

01:02:57

disagreement and you can't get past it and people stay offended about something that

01:03:01

goes away that's different than they think it should, then ultimately it's going to break.

01:03:07

So this is kind of the bottleneck or the choke point I realized is that once you have a decision

01:03:13

that's made by the team and you're using the idea of the idea of meritocracy, these believability

01:03:19

weighted decisions that you're making, you have to be able to disconnect your personal

01:03:24

feelings or what side you were on before the decision was made from the actual decision

01:03:31

and then work to see the end goal that the organization has come about.

01:03:38

You got to be able to see things from a higher level.

01:03:43

The disagree but commit, this is the way that I heard it defined and I think it was Jeff

01:03:47

Bezos who originally I saw talk about this.

01:03:53

But I think this is something that is simple maybe to understand a lot harder to practice.

01:03:59

Oh yeah, definitely.

01:04:00

But something that I think is really, really valuable.

01:04:06

So, and this is something that you could apply as if you're at the head of an organization

01:04:12

and you say, I want my people to understand that there's going to be disagreements.

01:04:16

So this is a principle we're all going to share in like disagree but commit.

01:04:20

But I think the more valuable application of it is if you're not at the top of the food

01:04:24

chain recognizing that you're not always going to get your way, if you can start practicing

01:04:29

this, it's going to severely impact the quality of your life.

01:04:34

You're not going to get so upset about stuff.

01:04:37

Because this can apply at home.

01:04:41

I don't always get what I want.

01:04:42

I've got a wife of five kids who also have things that they want to do in places they

01:04:48

have to be and so I may want to stay home on a Saturday.

01:04:52

I'm going to go to soccer practice anyways.

01:04:57

It could happen in a church organization or where I've got people above me who are going

01:05:04

to ask me maybe to do things that I don't really want to do or I don't think I've got

01:05:11

a whole lot of extra time and yeah, I'd love to do that sort of thing but I just got to

01:05:15

step in and feel a need.

01:05:17

And obviously there's a work context here too but I think even though this is talking about

01:05:23

work principles, the interesting thing to me about this is how this can be played out

01:05:28

in all of these other arenas.

01:05:29

For sure.

01:05:30

Yeah, I can think of all kinds of scenarios where I don't agree with what's being done

01:05:35

but the decision is made, the decision is outside of me.

01:05:38

So guess what?

01:05:40

We get to commit to following through on it the way it was decided because it's outside

01:05:44

of me at this point.

01:05:45

So this happened at our local church.

01:05:50

We had a building project here a few years ago and there were quite a few folks against

01:05:55

it, a number of folks for it.

01:05:56

It essentially went through, was passed and has since been built and paid for and everything.

01:06:03

But the group that was against it bought in and was all on board as soon as that decision

01:06:10

was made and we didn't have any issues past that point.

01:06:13

So kudos to that particular team for following through on it but that is not simple.

01:06:20

Like that is a hard thing to come to grips with and to follow through on.

01:06:26

So a very, very important principle here in even if you have a disagreement, follow through

01:06:34

on the decision once it's made.

01:06:37

I don't know what else to say about it other than that but it's a hard thing to actually

01:06:40

do in real life for sure.

01:06:42

It's a hard thing to do but what's crazy about it is let's just say that you're not the one

01:06:48

driving the change, making the decision from the top of the food chain.

01:06:54

How quickly you can disagree but commit and get over your own preferences has a direct

01:07:01

correlation to how happy you're going to be.

01:07:05

And not only on a personal level but if you have people who can't get over that then

01:07:12

it's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy.

01:07:14

They will sabotage the situation like the building project for example.

01:07:18

There are enough people in that group who didn't want to go through with it and they

01:07:22

fought tooth and nail after the decision that's going to end in failure.

01:07:28

And then you can look back and you can say, oh well I guess I was right but what does

01:07:32

that gain anybody at that point?

01:07:34

Congratulations you were right and you killed the organization because of it.

01:07:38

The organization, the mission is greater than the individual and it's kind of interesting

01:07:45

to me that if you can get your eyes off of your own individual stuff that oftentimes

01:07:53

that ends up better for you as the individual.

01:07:57

It's kind of contrary to how we're wired to think about others first but when we do we

01:08:05

end up better because of it.

01:08:08

It's kind of a paradox I guess but it's tied to what we talked about in the life principle

01:08:15

section where you have to be open-minded and embrace the idea that you could be wrong.

01:08:23

And when you are okay with the fact that you might be wrong it's a lot simpler to just,

01:08:28

oh well okay didn't go my way, let's do it anyways and get on board with where everybody

01:08:33

is going.

01:08:34

For sure.

01:08:35

But you should also keep asking why am I?

01:08:38

Yeah again there's so much in here I try to just pick out a couple things but near the

01:08:43

back of the book he has an exercise in principle 12 I think it was, diagnose problems to get

01:08:51

to their root causes where you use a drill down technique to gain what he defines as

01:08:58

an 80/20 understanding of the department or a sub-department that's having problems but

01:09:03

you can apply this in any area of life I think.

01:09:07

And where you list the problems you identify the root causes you create a plan you execute

01:09:11

the plan but when you keep asking why you eventually get to the root causes that's really

01:09:19

the step two the identify the root causes.

01:09:22

And he has a visual in the book an example I don't have it in front of me where they

01:09:27

keep asking why.

01:09:28

It reminded me of the five wise exercise that I've heard about before and it's something

01:09:34

that I don't do enough of.

01:09:37

I want to and I don't have an action I'm associated with this but to keep drilling down until

01:09:45

you get to the truth and it was a good reminder for me and kind of shocking to me honestly

01:09:51

how much I get to maybe level one level two and then I see a justification something that

01:10:01

masquerades is a root cause and I guess that kind of makes sense and then I just leave

01:10:05

it.

01:10:06

I don't want to do that.

01:10:07

I want to spend enough time with the things to really figure out what's going on.

01:10:11

Sure.

01:10:12

Yeah I don't do this in business stuff enough.

01:10:16

I really should be asking why things happen.

01:10:20

If you work in the world of an online business which I of course have a full time job at

01:10:24

the church but I still do my side business stuff online and with that I have a tendency

01:10:32

to like the first inkling at an understanding of why something happened like oh interesting

01:10:38

okay I'm going to run with it that way then even even without second guessing it when I

01:10:45

should probably you know drill deeper and deeper and deeper to figure out what the actual root

01:10:50

cause is because most likely I'm just looking at a symptom of the root cause and saying that

01:10:55

that's the real deal so yes.

01:11:00

Keep asking why does he even I don't remember does he give a number of times to ask.

01:11:05

I don't think he does but that's why I wanted to call it out here because I think as a general

01:11:09

rule you could just say five wise and eventually by the fifth why you're going to get there.

01:11:15

And that's probably not 100% true in all situations but I think it's a good place to

01:11:20

start and then again there's a ton of places where this can play out if your kids are acting

01:11:27

out.

01:11:29

Keep asking why eventually you'll figure it out or even if you're in a work situation

01:11:35

like I'm kind of doing this right now we're trying to figure out what our scoreboard looks

01:11:39

like and what are the things that really drive the business forward.

01:11:44

Well keep asking why and eventually you'll land at those don't just stop at the first

01:11:49

thing that sounds good and make okay let's track this.

01:11:52

Sure.

01:11:53

Because you could track it for a month and then realize that oh that was a waste of a month

01:11:57

right.

01:11:58

Right.

01:11:59

Right.

01:12:00

Driving things forward for the business.

01:12:01

So the question why it forces you to think the right way.

01:12:07

A lot of finding the right solutions is simply asking the right questions and you really

01:12:13

can't go wrong when you keep asking why.

01:12:17

I'm really inspired by his approach of I want to know what's true.

01:12:23

I want to be humble enough for anybody to tell me and show me where I'm wrong.

01:12:28

He's got some examples in this work section of letters that his subordinates sent him

01:12:33

and like hey you really did a poor job in this meeting because you did this that and

01:12:37

the other thing.

01:12:38

You didn't let me talk and you tried to be the expert and you don't know what you're

01:12:41

talking about.

01:12:42

It's like wow that's radical candor.

01:12:45

No, can't.

01:12:48

But I try to do that myself.

01:12:50

I want to know the truth.

01:12:53

But sometimes the truth is going to hurt.

01:12:58

Sometimes if you're not it's hard to hear how you're messing things up or how you're

01:13:03

not doing things right.

01:13:05

But I want to know that stuff so I can get it fixed and as I'm reading through this section

01:13:12

that's one of the approaches I want to take.

01:13:15

Sure.

01:13:16

Well just keep asking why and whenever I see a result ask myself why.

01:13:20

What's the system that produced this and what needs to maybe change in that system.

01:13:25

Right.

01:13:26

Right.

01:13:27

You ready for action items?

01:13:29

Did we really get through the book?

01:13:30

Well we did.

01:13:31

I mean there's tons more in this work section but we got through the peaks of the mountains.

01:13:41

None of the valleys.

01:13:43

Yeah actually let me there is one other thing here putting it all together the very last

01:13:48

section in part three I believe.

01:13:52

He mentions that we work with others to get three things and I found myself getting emotional

01:13:57

when I read this.

01:13:59

Number one leverage to accomplish our chosen missions in bigger and better ways than we

01:14:03

could alone.

01:14:05

Number two quality relationships that together make a great community.

01:14:08

Number three money that allows us to buy what we need and want for ourselves and others.

01:14:14

And I was getting emotional because I literally before I read this section like the day before

01:14:19

was talking to somebody at my co-working space about we walked over and got coffee and

01:14:26

he was asking me how's work going and I explained my situation and what I was doing now and

01:14:32

he was like that sounds pretty awesome.

01:14:35

He's working as a systems analyst for this company remotely and he's talking about all

01:14:41

the junk he's got to put up with on a daily basis and he makes good money but he's frustrated

01:14:47

with what he's doing and he gets to work as early as he can so he can get off as early

01:14:54

as he can and the whole time that he's there he's just agitated and angry and I recognize

01:15:02

that where I am right now that maybe I don't have all three of these things figured out

01:15:08

but I got the important ones.

01:15:10

I feel like what I'm doing now I'm able to fulfill my chosen missions in bigger and better

01:15:15

ways than I could alone.

01:15:19

And number two quality relationships I feel like bookworm, blank media, focused everything

01:15:26

that I'm involved with I'm blown away with the quality of the people that I get to do

01:15:31

stuff with.

01:15:32

I could not pick a better group of folks to call my friends and the money that's going

01:15:41

to come.

01:15:42

In the past I have tried to cram as many things in as I could have been guilty of that and

01:15:49

I've recognized over the years that people are the reason for productivity going back

01:15:54

to Chris Bailey and I just feel like where I'm at right now I'm kind of in alignment to

01:16:01

maximize both of those first two areas.

01:16:04

And I know we've talked about your situation too I don't want to get into all the details

01:16:07

if you don't want to share them but you're kind of thinking this way too probably so

01:16:11

I'm curious what kind of reaction you had to this section.

01:16:14

Yeah, no it's a good one because I know that I've had a lot of rough things come my way

01:16:20

in the last year or so a couple of year and a half or so and some of those I could control

01:16:26

some of those I could not some of them have put me in a very difficult financial situation.

01:16:33

Some other people have put me in some difficult financial situations so it becomes a process

01:16:40

of you know if the people are part of the problem in that case yeah I need to get those

01:16:44

people out of my life like they are not helpful you know they're causing me to think down

01:16:50

and I can't do that.

01:16:52

So I guess from a higher level stance like one thing that we you and I do a lot Mike is

01:16:58

productivity tools systems services you know etc etc we love this stuff but something I've

01:17:06

become more and more aware of and Ray is a good timing with this book because Ray is

01:17:12

a guy who thinks very very big and his systems the way that he does things are on a whole

01:17:20

nother level if not multiple levels above what you and I do on a regular basis like

01:17:25

people talk about how big success requires big systems and big thinking it's very easy

01:17:31

to focus on yeah I'm going to put together this omni focus course and kick it out and

01:17:37

it'll be great it'll be a good time I'll love that process you know it's always fun but

01:17:43

Ray would probably never even consider doing something like that because it's not anywhere

01:17:48

near big enough for what he's thinking about now the bigger you think the more finances

01:17:54

typically come with it as well but you have to be willing to alter your systems to a higher

01:18:00

level in order to hit those higher levels of success as well to me this particular piece

01:18:06

that you're talking about is a motivator to do that you know yes I have been through

01:18:12

a lot in the last year and a half in the last probably week I've been week and a half two

01:18:18

weeks I've learned of some more difficulties with that with like a mold infection and such

01:18:23

so like I'm trying to work through a lot of that but at the same time I also know I have

01:18:29

been sick for so long that I'm now sick of being sick and I was talking to my specialist

01:18:36

about it and you know what I've been fighting illness for so long that I just kind of expect

01:18:42

to feel bad when I get up in the morning and that doesn't help me heal like that doesn't

01:18:48

help me in the process of getting past that sure so what I've been coming to lately is

01:18:53

you know what I'm gonna get up and I'm gonna be healthy today like as weird as that sounds

01:18:58

is just make that decision like that's kind of where I'm at like yes I know that I have

01:19:04

some health concerns I'm not shirking that but I'm also not going to assume that I'm

01:19:12

gonna have a bad day because of it so I'm gonna be super better exactly and you know

01:19:17

some of this comes from that some of it comes from principles you know it comes from a lot

01:19:22

of different things growth mindset grit like it comes from a lot of these things these

01:19:26

books that we've gone through of like you know what it I'm just done I'm done and in

01:19:33

some cases you know what as I reevaluate some of this right now and go through like I'm in

01:19:38

a really good place now I'm in the process of rebuilding some of what was in some cases

01:19:45

taken from me and some things that I did incorrectly like I'm rebuilding some of that

01:19:50

now and trying to do it in a better way and some of that is primarily debt because of principles

01:19:59

and radolio it's the one action item I have yet from this book is it as I'm working through

01:20:05

all of this stuff I know that one of the things I've not done well is systematizing some of

01:20:11

my decisions in the business that I run so I've been shifting it I've kind of got two

01:20:17

businesses of sorts that I'm working through right now and I want to systemize some of

01:20:21

those decisions that I make for those from a numbers stance I've never really done that

01:20:26

you know people talk about like sales funnels and such and like I've never been into that

01:20:32

and I think that's a detriment like my systematic thinking in all of this is too low of a level

01:20:40

to say that it's been truly successful so I'm trying to raise that bar and take it to

01:20:45

that next level of some degree so this is a long winded way of saying I like this book

01:20:51

yeah it's it's a it's a good book we'll get into style and rating here in a second you

01:20:58

already shared your action item so I'll share a couple of mine I mentioned already that I

01:21:03

want to create the mindfulness meditation habit using headspace been doing that hopefully

01:21:08

I can continue to do that I also mentioned I want to embrace radical truth and radical

01:21:13

transparency however and wherever I can that one is kind of generic I know the other one

01:21:20

that is interesting to me because he talks a lot about the different personality type

01:21:25

assessments he mentions the Myers Briggs he didn't mention the Colby it would be cool

01:21:30

to hear because I really enjoy that one I think there's a lot of insight to begin from

01:21:34

that one strengths finder you know that type of stuff but I've gone through a bunch of

01:21:39

those things and my wife has gone through several of them as well I know that there

01:21:45

are kids versions of those types of things but even if they don't go through those formal

01:21:51

assessments I do think that there is some value in the idea that he mentions of creating

01:21:57

baseball cards he talks about it in the organizational perspective is what people are good at and

01:22:03

they have these things publicly listed so when you need someone who does something you

01:22:07

look at their baseball card and you can see that they have the skills to do this thing

01:22:11

you shouldn't try to do it yourself I want to create baseball cards for my family and

01:22:17

I don't think I'll have this done by the next episode I think this is going to take some

01:22:20

time but I also think that this could provide some identity in some direction for my kids

01:22:27

to understand their own unique talents and abilities not that they're set in stone you

01:22:32

know growth mindset we do hard things but I do think this would be kind of cool and give

01:22:37

them some confidence so I want to want to do this for my family

01:22:40

I think that'll be a cool one I don't think I'm gonna do it but I think it'd be really

01:22:44

cool for you alright style and rating sure we got I really enjoyed this book it took me

01:22:51

forever to get through it because I created the largest mind map that anyone has ever

01:22:57

created probably maybe that's not true but it was something that I really think is valuable

01:23:06

and something that I would like to do at some point in my life I would love to have a Mike

01:23:12

Schmitt's principles like this I think that this is one of the most valuable books anybody

01:23:21

can read again it's his principles so you have to recognize that but it is the sum total

01:23:27

of his life experience written in a way that he can transfer as much of it as possible

01:23:32

to you in as little even though it's 500 something pages as little time as possible I

01:23:39

think if you have the right perspective as you're going through this book there is so

01:23:42

much that you could glean from this and you don't have to try to get it all so you does

01:23:48

take the right perspective going through this book if you if if you're the type of person

01:23:52

who when you read through a book you want to keep all of it front of mind that's not

01:23:58

going to happen that's kind of why I created this ridiculous digital reference but you

01:24:03

don't have to do that either he even gives you a little cheat sheet section in the middle

01:24:06

the pages I think are tipped in red so you can find it real simply and he's got a index

01:24:11

basically of all the different life and business principles that he outlines in this book

01:24:18

there were a couple things that I heard him talk about some of the principles and I was

01:24:23

like I don't think I would I would do that one that particular way but that's all just

01:24:30

based on values differences and it really wasn't something that I got hung up on I struggle

01:24:36

with what to rate this because a lot of the 5.0 books that we read they're kind of life

01:24:46

changing they give you something that allows you to see things in a totally different way

01:24:53

and this book didn't do that for me but it did give me a lot more concrete ways to think

01:25:02

about things that I kind of understood already so I feel like this kind of cemented some

01:25:06

things for me that he explained it in a way I didn't understand it before this felt like

01:25:12

getting coffee with somebody who was really super successful and he's just sharing everything

01:25:18

that he learned and if that idea appeals to you then this is easily a 5 star book if

01:25:27

that sounds boring to you you're not going to get anything out of this that's totally

01:25:31

right up my alley though so I'm going to rate this 5 stars nice well I I can tell you that

01:25:41

having gone through this the second time like I have referenced this book more than I have

01:25:46

any other and like I I have a tendency to keep all my books easily available because I underline

01:25:53

and I have my index in the back of them which is why I don't really have a good way of sharing

01:25:57

it with people so I know that sometimes I'll have something come to mind and I go grab a

01:26:05

book from the shelf because I know it came from mindset but I don't remember what the

01:26:10

exact was and I just want to refer to it so I go flip through the index and I look up the

01:26:15

reference of what I was going for and I find what I'm after I pick up principles more than

01:26:21

just about every other book I'm pretty sure so this is one that I know will come back over

01:26:28

and over and over again and I already know there's some sections I want to go reference

01:26:32

in the midst of doing my action item over the next week or two like I know that I'm going

01:26:37

to be pulling it back out quite a bit to me this is an easy five oh like this this is a

01:26:43

an awesomely written book rate as a great job of writing it and is giving you tons of information

01:26:52

to share I've got a handful of potential business ideas as a result of reading this all of which

01:26:59

I should probably say no to so like it's one that can spark a lot and one that I think

01:27:07

anyone could clean at least something from so I do highly recommend this one but you've

01:27:13

got to be I think you have to be a dedicated reader to do this because it is long yeah

01:27:18

like this is a big book you're not going to sit down and read this on an evening that

01:27:22

will not happen Michael make fun of you if you read it for two four weeks at a time that's

01:27:27

okay but it is one it's worth going through and one that I do really enjoy so thanks for

01:27:35

making me go through it again Mike yeah for sure thanks to the club for recommending it

01:27:40

I do want to call it real quickly here again you have to have the right perspective don't

01:27:44

just go by the fact that Joe and I both rated this as 5.0 that this is the right book for

01:27:49

you if you are just trying to get the gist of a book which I know is what a lot of people

01:27:55

do when they listen to bookworm then you're not going to like this this is not something

01:27:59

that you can get the blinkest version of and there are some books that blinkest would

01:28:06

have been great for that we've covered right because it's a simple thing that should have

01:28:11

been a blog post and they stretched out to 200 pages yeah like bring this is 540 pages

01:28:15

that easily could have been a thousand plus if the idea of sitting down with somebody like

01:28:21

Ray Dalio and getting coffee and trying to learn from him is appealing to you then 540

01:28:27

pages will fly by and you're going to wish this was longer but if you want just like

01:28:32

the too long didn't read version whatever time you're going to invest in this you're

01:28:37

going to feel like is a waste so make sure that you have the right perspective before

01:28:42

you decide to pick this one up and go through it for yourself otherwise it will be kind of

01:28:46

a waste of time sure absolutely well throw not that disclaimer there yeah it's probably

01:28:52

a good good one to throw out there but let's let's put this one on the shelf next time

01:28:57

we are going to go through you are awesome by Neil Pessrisha again these were advanced

01:29:04

copies that were sent to us and Mike yours is on the way but it should be a good read it's

01:29:09

obviously very new so it'll be it'll be a good one to go through I was not familiar with Neil

01:29:15

and I went through and kind of looked at all of his back catalog and kind of the stuff that he's

01:29:22

written he's a speaker I think this is going to be fun yeah it should be a good one to this one too

01:29:27

what you got next all right I'm looking through the the club right now and one that jumps out to me

01:29:33

is highly voted for margin by Richard Swenson this is something that I've wanted to talk to you

01:29:38

about for a long time so awesome I'm going to pick that one and then gapbooks I know you don't have

01:29:44

one at least on the outline here I don't life has been busy yeah I've got the I'm going to pick the

01:29:50

same one I had last time because I really do want to dig into stillness is the key by Ryan Holliday

01:29:56

if I still can't get to it during this one maybe I'll pick that for the bookworm too

01:30:01

here you go I know that this book is going to be going to be awesome and I've heard lots of

01:30:06

great things about it from all the other people who have been raving about it online so that's my

01:30:12

gapbook that's the plan anyways all right so thanks everybody for listening and thank you

01:30:18

specifically to our premium club members as I mentioned I've got a ridiculous mind map which

01:30:24

is available to club members if you want to join the club it's five bucks a month you can also pay

01:30:29

an alumpseum for a yearly plan that helps Joe and I keep doing this and it gives you access to some

01:30:38

extra stuff including all of the mind maps for all of the books that we we cover here so if you

01:30:43

want to download all that stuff you can join the club by going to club.bookworm.fm/membership

01:30:49

or if you're listening in overcast just tap on the little icon on the the bottom of the player

01:30:55

which will take you right to that page awesome well look forward to seeing you guys in the club

01:31:01

and if you are reading along with us pick up you are awesome by Neil Pissricha and we will go

01:31:06

through it next time.